France / France
Pierre - 07:56am Oct 12, 2004
Pour les américains la France est seulement un pays gastronomique. Ils ne connaissent rien d'autre que notre gastronomie et la Tour Eiffel. Il faut dire que d'après une étude américaine, 50% de la population aux Etats-unis ne sait même pas où se trouve la France. Ce qui montre leur ethnocentrisme et leur mépris pour le reste du monde. Quelques mots à connotation politique apparaissent et metent en avant les conflits franco-américains entre Bush et Chirac; mais avant ces évenements aucun d'entre eux n'auraient utilisé ces mots.
Yann - 08:10am Oct 12, 2004
Les associations effectuées par rapport au mot "France" font apparaitre deux types de perceptions : - La perception américaine fait référence en générale à l'art, à la mode et à la gastronomie. - Les associations réalisées par les français sont constituées, en plus des éléments caractérisant le rayonnement de la France à l'étranger, de mots faisant référence aux problèmes du pays. Ces différences de perceptions sont caractéristiques d'une vision étrangère confrontée à celle des habitants d'un pays.
Eric - 04:00pm Oct 14, 2004
You can't fault Americans for associating France with good food, cheese, wine and croissants. Many of your associations with "United States" had to do with McDonald's. And, most would agree, McDonald's doesn't exactly serve high-quality food. At any rate, some of your associations with "France" also included references to "gastronomie" and other related words. You also have to consider that many stereotypes result from what we see on television and learn about through the media. To be honest, most movies depict the French as snobs.
And, I think everyone at our school could point out France on a map.
Audrey - 11:04am Oct 15, 2004
Les étudiants de votre école peuvent peut etre situer la France sur une carte, mais la majorité des Américains non. Je suis d'accord quand vous ditez que nous sommes décris comme snobe dans les films.Nous ne sommes pas tous comme ça.
Mais l'image des français même dans des séries actuelles est fausse. Prenons l'exemple de Dawson's Creek". Lorsque Joe vient à Paris, on voit l'image d'une France avec des 2CV( veille voiture que l'on peut encore croiser, mais l'on voit plus facilement des Ford ;-)) un papy sur uns vélo avec un béret et une baguette (je peux vous confirmer que vous n'en croiser pas à chaque coin de rue). Par contre ce qui est vrai, c'est l'image de la Tour Effel, elle est comme dans la série. Les stéréotypes sont transmis et perpétuer par les médias, qu'ils soient français ou américains.
Edgar - 04:10am Oct 17, 2004
Regarding Pierre's comment: I understand that maybe Americans are portrayed as ignorant in France (actually, that was one of the things that Alain Bosquet said in his article in "Les Americains sont-ils adultes?"). However, saying that the average American cannot point out France in a world map is a bit far-fetched. You can go to an average 3rd grade class and they will be able to tell you where France is located (and I think it would be safe to say that more than 50% of Americans make it to 3rd grade). So, Pierre, answer this question: if you grab an average French person walking down the street, what are the chances he/she will be able to point out the United States on the world map?
As a more general comment, of course people that live in a country will be able to associate their country with more issues than an outsider can. For example, most of the French entries for "United States" fell into two categories: "Bush" and "Mac Doc". Now, I'm sure that to an American there is a lot more to the United States than Bush and McDonald's.
Either way, "cheese" under France and "MacDonald's" under the United States have some similarities: both say that food is an important part of culture, and that food is one of those cultural aspects that foreign people may mostly associate you with.
Tufool - Nuaimi
On the French side, the words: "Vin, Camembert, Baguette, Champagne, Gastronomie" were words that were associated to France.
So if the French think of that as being part of France, and that is what a foreigner would see. (through ads, movies, etc) then it is only natural for people who aren't french to also associate those words to France.No?
Regardless of whether or not an american can point out France on a map, I do not think that they think of France as one big piece of cheese, on the contrary, on the American side people also associated the words : Culture, History, Art, Eiffel tower, Louvre, Fashion to France.
I agree with Edgar, there is definitely more to France than just that, especially through the eyes of a French Person.
Brian - 10:52pm Oct 17, 2004
I, too, think that it's a little unreasonable to assume that half of all Americans wouldn't know where to find France on a map. Paris is the number one tourist destination in the world - bigger than New York and Los Angeles - the place where all of the movies you watch are made. Everyone knows where France is.
But let's be honest - France is largely a country of food and wine. Those are some of your biggest exports - cheese and wine, are they not? After 9/11, due in large part to the American boycott of French wines, many of your vineyards were having economic problems, and that is an industry that supports much of your rural areas.
Aside from AirBus in Toulouse, the French economy does not have a large percentage of high-tech industries supporting it. Between tourism and your wine and food production, that's where a very large chunk of your economy comes from - embrace it!
Juan - 11:17pm Oct 18, 2004
Well, you shouldn't take it as an offense that people here can't locate France on a map, they can't locate the US on a map. Quoting the National Geographic Today (November 20, 2002): "About 11 percent of young citizens of the U.S. couldn't even locate the U.S. on a map. The Pacific Ocean's location was a mystery to 29 percent; Japan, to 58 percent; France, to 65 percent; and the United Kingdom, to 69 percent. "
"France's top five exported products in 2001 were machinery and mechanical appliances at Euro 47.13 billion representing 13% of France total exports, aircraft & spacecraft came next at Euro 43.79 billion or 12 of France total exports, followed by vehicles, parts and accessories at Euro 43 billion, electrical machinery and parts at Euro 38.63 billion or 10 % of the export market and mineral fuels at Euro 10.91 billion or 3% of France's total exports." I don't see the wine and cheese.
Audrey - 08:08am Oct 19, 2004
je suis contente de voir que au moins certains ( merci Juan) reconnaissent que la localisation de la France n'est pas facile pour tous les Américains. Tout le monde n'a pas les connaissances que vous avez en géographie.
(Deleted - 09:02am Oct 19, 2004
Brian, en ce qui me concerne, j'ai de la famille américaine qui n'a pas le réflexe de boycotter tous les produits venant de pays qui ne partagent pas nos idées! Nous on ne boycotte pas les macdo et le coca! C'est même très bon! Pourquoi se priver?! Je ne comprends pas...
Marie - Sophie Kurschat
En réponse à Edgar J Terrero, je suis persuadée que n'importe qu'elle personne interrogée sur les Etats Unis serait capable de situer ce pays sur une carte... En effet, on "mange" de l'Etats Unis tous les jours, dans les films au cinéma, dans les séries télévisées, sans parler de nos journaux télévisés!... Je doute vraiment que votre notoriété actuelle ne nous permette pas de vous situer sur une carte du monde... Quant à moi, j'ai une question à vous poser : si vous interrogez n'importe quelle personne (scolarisée ou non à un haut niveau) sur nos régions françaises, pourra-t-elle nous en citer une seule? Contrairement à n'importe quelle personne française interrogée sur vos Etats, elle pourrait facilement vous en citer au moins 20...
Pierre - 09:17am Oct 19, 2004
Je vote Marie Sophie aux prochaines élections (et je dirais 40 états au moins connus). Vous allez peut-être nous rétorquer que c'est grâce à la "culture" (film, TV, livre, etc.) américaine que nous connaissons mieux votre pays que vous le notre. Mais le problème est que cette "culture" nous est imposée et que nous l'acceptons (avec plus ou moins notre mot à dire) et qu'elle n'est pas obligatoirement très instructive. De votre côté votre ethnocentrisme et votre pro-américanisme à outrance vous empêche de vous ouvrir aux cultures étrangères. C'est peut-être pourquoi votre connaissance de notre pays et de plein d'autres n'est pas une de vos priorité. Et pourtant Dieu sait que le monde pourrait vous apprendre moult chose (plutôt que de voir trop souvent l'intérêt économique et géostratégique de vos incursions dans d'autres pays, essayez d'en tirer quelquechose d'intellectuellement constructif). Malgré tout ne voyez pas dans cette réponse un anti-américanisme ou une attaque personnelle mais plutôt un point de vue plus ou moins avisé sur la majorité de vos actions et votre manipulation sans vergogne du reste du monde.
Brian - 08:42pm Oct 20, 2004
Well not everyone boycotted things, but it's kind of a typical American response. On a national scale, boycotts and trade embargoes can express a serious opinion or even cause economic change. Of course, the people boycotting French wines were mainly people who didn't understand what they were doing. (Boycotting wine isn't going to send much of a message at all to the government, it's just going to hurt less well-to-do vineyard owners...) In any case, trust me, I was very much enjoying my French wine and vodka at the time :)
Edgar - 09:42pm Oct 20, 2004
This is mostly in response to Ms. Kurschat's comments. First of all, I accepted your challenge: in French class, my classmates and I were asked to name regions in France, and we came up with 7 of them. Not so bad for your "you wouldn't even be able to tell 1." You said something about you guys "eating" the United States. Prof. Fustenberg said something important about reading every passage with respect to the subject but also with respect to the author.
So now I will ask you this question: if you guys "eat" American culture everyday (and accept it), what does that say about French people in general, and the strength of their culture?
To Mr. Lefrancois: your responses usually tend to be exaggerated. You're saying an average French person would know 40 states of the United States???? You might want to back up your statements with some kind of evidence, because that number does not seem very realistic. However, I guess you did answer the question I had for Marie-Sophie about why the French were so easily influenced by American culture (you said something about "pro-Americanism").
To everyone, I say the same thing Pierre said: please don't see my answers as a personal attack, or as anti-French (they're nowhere close to either of those). I am just curious about some things.
Yann - 12:02pm Oct 22, 2004
A tous, je pense que nous ne sommes pas directement responsable de l'environnement ou nous vivons. Il est facile de s'attaquer sur tel ou tel point. Pour que les discussions soient constructives, il est souhaitable de confronter nos divergences avec respect et considération.
S - 06:51am Oct 25, 2004
Yann tu brasses du vent! J'adore les States, c'est le plus beau pays du monde (après la France), les mecs les plus sympas (après la France), l'hymne le plus sympa (après la France), le plus beau drapeau (après la France) mais le meilleur cycliste (hip hip hip Lance! donc le meilleur dopage indétectable?! lol), la meilleure équipe de Basket, les meilleurs films, les meilleurs acteurs! Schwarzie for President! Et je kiff votrer président! C'est pas un peureux! Il combat le terrorisme et c'est un des seuls à ne pas baisser sa culotte (that means he is not gay!) Sinon il faut avouer qu'on mange mieux chez nous! Mais bon on est cousins! On mange du Macdo, on achète du Nike, on suit la NBA! Faut pas dériver dans une polémique kantienne qui nous jetterait dans des abimes de perplexité métaphysique et qui corroborerait l'inénarrable!! Faisons l'amour pas la guerre! (Sauf en Irak!)! lol Et si on fait la guerre je m'engage pour les américains (parce que vous au moins vous avez une armée, des portes avions qui marchent, de la logistique et des moyens, nous on en est encore au fusil de 1870 lors de la prise de Sedan et de Napoléon III! Je fais bien mon Yann là!?
Kegham - 09:57am Oct 25, 2004
Moi j'aimerais raconter une petite anecdote...
Je travaille dans le tourisme comme job d'été. Je suis très souvent amené à faire visiter Paris à des touristes américains. Une de mes clientes qui occupait un poste à responsabilités chez General Electric était en train de profiter d'une très intéressante visite touristique de Paris lorsque, en passant devant la tour Eiffel elle s'est arrêtée et m'a demandé: "Oh my gosh! Did they repair it?" "Excuse me madam but why should they have to repair it? I don't understand." "Well..." she says, "Wasn't it leaning a bit before?" Je suis désolé de vous apprendre que la seule tour qui penche en Europe est la tour de Pise qui se trouve en Italie (vous savez? Le truc qui ressemble à une botte juste en dessous des fromages qui puent.) Je m'emporte légèrement et j'en suis désolé mais quand des gens se permettent de dire que les Français sont "snobbish" il devraient tout d'abord regarder la base constitutive de toute leur cinématographie où le monde entier peut voire comment les américains sont forts et comment à chaque fois ils sauvent le monde de tous les périls terrestres et extraterrestres...
Who is snobbish and who has an oversized ego? I'd say that these adjectives fit more the saviours of the world than the alcoholic cheese and wine producers.
Brian - 09:45pm Oct 25, 2004
I've read that 58% of French citizens approve a zero-tolerance law concerning driving under the influence of alcohol. (http://www.ifop.com/europe/sondages/opinionf/securout181004.asp) What do you guys think of this? Of course, in Paris there aren't as many people who own cars and there are plenty of cabs, but would this be too restrictive a ban in the more rural areas of the country? What if you have to drive to the closest brasserie and you just have one glass of '64? Then you have to wait around an hour before you can drive home! That might be a little too much, don't you think?
Edgar - 11:27pm Oct 25, 2004
Back to the map issue (ha ha ha...)
I will be referencing from this website: http://www.tns-sofres.com/etudes/consumer/221004_geographie.htm
While Pierre's and Marie-Sophie's comments were a bit far-fetched (i.e. exaggerated), they do have some credibility when it comes to French ability to display stuff on the map. For example, the site above says that 74% of the interviewees were able to correctly tell the distance between Bordeaux and Strasbourg. Also, this article interestingly pointed out that 94% of the interviewed find geography interesting. Wow, that is a huge number. Moreover, for 2/3 of the French, geography is directly correlated to maps, so I guess that they would be able to use a map efficiently.
So, I guess you guys are right about the French telling the U.S. on a world map. I will do a bit of research on numbers for Americans, which I hope can come out favorably (ha ha).
Edgar - 12:02am Oct 26, 2004
I have another question. What is social inequality like in France? With respect to gender, race, and economic status? It is interesting that the article below says that 73% of French people think that "something" can be done against social injustice. How good of a measure is this number? Do people that find social injustice unfair actually DO something about it?
Reference: http://www.tns-sofres.com/etudes/pol/240604_inegalites_r.htm
Brian - 12:10am Oct 29, 2004
I think the map question is just a little skewed... The distance between Bordeaux and Strasbourg is just about the distance between Boston and Washington DC. I think a whole bunch of Americans could figure that out. From Madrid to Munich is one time zone. Maps are a little smaller over there, not to mention the fact that you can take trains just about anywhere for very cheap and no customs issues. A lot more people travel. More Europeans speak other languages too. But is that a product of much smarter people, or just that there are lots of other languages spoken in a smaller area?
Alejandro - 01:35am Nov 8, 2004
Could somebody explain me what's going on in the Ivory Coast? I tried researching but there's too many characters and I couldn't find a single website that clearly explained the global situation over there. For a little reference of the latest news, here's this article:
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20041107.FIG0219.html
My biggest question is: why is France involved in this conflict? I know the Ivory Coast used to be a French colony, but now they're independent. I also read this country has a lot of French residents, especially in Abidjan, so I assumed that was the biggest reason the French Army is involved. But I'd appreciate an answer to this question and an overview of the conflict since I couldn't find one.