Individualism / Individualisme
Pablo - 08:23am Oct 12, 2004
je suis surpris de la différence d'appréciation qu'il existe dans ce mot. Car pour les français "l'individualisme" est un mot négative associé à l'idée de...
Le classement des premiers synonymes :1)égoïsme,2)indépendance,3)libéralisme,4)non-conformisme,5) particularisme,6)égocentrisme,7)anarchisme.
source: http://elsap1.unicaen.fr/cgi-bin/trouvebis2?requete=individualisme&refer=%23 (CNRS - Université de Caen, tous droits réservés)
comme on peut constater il y a un grand écart entre notre perception de ce mot et la votre, alors ma question est la suivante:
pouvez vous m'expliquer pourquoi et sur quelle idée vous avez associé la "créativité" et votre pays " l'amérique" au mot "individualisme"?
Jérôme - 08:32am Oct 12, 2004
Bonjour, après avoir observé les réponses concernant l'individualisme, on constate une grosse différence d'intérprétation de ce mot. Les Français y associent majoritairement l'égoisme alors que les américains y associent pluôt les valeurs de liberté et de courage. Il est clair que cette différence de point de vue s'explique par des raisons historiques et politiques. Il est vraiment dommage d'un point de vue économique, que l'esprit d'initiative ne soit pas autant encouragé en France qu'aux USA. En effet celui ci ne s'oppose en rien au travail collectif, au contraire celui ci en est enrichi et rendu bien plus productif.
Eric - 04:35pm Oct 14, 2004
It is interesting to note these differences in interpretation. If someone told me to "be creative" I would take that to mean I should do something in a way no one else would. I would try to come up with a unique result. We see individualism as expression of one's own identity, not the identity of a group. Think of the word "non-conformity." If I choose to do something my own way, I choose not to go with the flow, I am being an individual. Does that make sense?
Evans - 12:59pm Oct 17, 2004
In response to Jerome's comment regarding the positive effect of individualism on our economy, it's certainly important to note the downside of individualism on American society (and economy). While it has no doubt been positive to have so many entrepreneurs in legitimate enterprises, the individualist spirit in America has led to many illegal enterprises. Consider the pimps, drug dealers, and contract killers as individualism gone awry in America.
Xiaojie - 06:26pm Oct 17, 2004
It is interesting that both the French and the Americans have had revolutions in their history, but one country has developed into a communal society, while the other has developed into an individualist society. Why?
In America, our love of individualism can be attributed to our rebellious nature, which can be traced to the Revolution. A desire for individualism seems to stem from the American history of wanting to overcome oppression.
Andres - 07:48pm Oct 17, 2004
I guess the difference might come from the fact that the people who came from Europe were very few and found a very vast land, rich in resources and unexploited. This was ideal to develop a sense of selfishness and ambition, together with an idea of expansionism that helped this individualistic approach last long enough for it to become characteristic.
To add to Evans' comment, individualism also brings trouble to small businesses, which cannot succeed if a gigantic company is already monopolizing the market. In this way, opportunities are not always available and the rich are richer and the poor poorer.
Brian - 11:21pm Oct 17, 2004
I agree with Andres's interpretation. French culture in a way has always had to struggle with the difficult task of remaining French. There is a large percentage of French citizens who don't speak French as a first language, who come from other countries, and who don't exhibit typical French culture. While this is seen as a negative in France, Americans have always fought to keep identities and cultures separate - it's interesting to see the connotation surrounding both of the words.
Megan - 11:23pm Oct 17, 2004
I don't know if I agree that the individualistic spirit of America is the source of pimps, drug dealers, and contract killers, but I agree that the stress of individualistic rights in America has bad points such as competitiveness, etc. I think Pablo's assocation of individualism with anarchisme is interesting -- I had never thought of it that way, but I guess it makes sense.
Angela - 04:03am Oct 18, 2004
I was also interested that individualism had such a negative connotation for the french students, and such a positive one for us. I think this is because we view individualism as describing the positive results of uniqueness - an individual is free from the constraints of society in creating his or her destiny and is thus able to do some amazing (or perhaps awful things). However, I think its interesting how the differing perceptions of this word so directly reflect the differing attitudes of society - here, there is little social protection for the poor - they too are "individuals" and we often feel they are responsible for their failures, just like we want to take credit for the entirety of our success. However, the French social structure is one that promotes the idea of equality, and lifting all members of society up at once. This is approbrium to many Americans, who believe that the good of society comes at the expense of liberty, and hence at the expense of "individualism."
(Deleted - 09:50am Oct 19, 2004
Megan says that individualism has its bad points, like competitiveness. I disagree with that, because without competiveness, how do we better ourselves as a whole??? competitiveness between companies also means better products and cheaper prices for the mass of society. I think alot of what America is about is being an individual and working/living for yourself, and then contributing what you have accomplished to society so that we a "melting pot" of ideas, products, cultures, etc.
Brian - 09:03pm Oct 20, 2004
I agree with ChaLing. The point is that in this country, it's worth it to have a couple of downsides in order to preserve what we consider to be fundamental rights. Individualism in this country also produces people who grow up to be menbers of the KKK. But then again, it also produces Nobel Laureates and some of the best universities in the world. It is absolutely worth it, no matter what downside there is - otherwise, we'd be back where we started over 200 years ago.
Angela - 11:00pm Oct 20, 2004
I spoke with my housemate, who is French, about this, and she shed some interesting insight upon the words. She indicated that she perceived in French that the words "individualisme" and "individualite" have two different meanings - individualism is egoism, while individualite is being your own person, being creative.
We looked up the two english words, individualism and individuality in the dictionary, and found -
individualism - 1) a doctrine that the interests of the individual are or ought to be ethically paramount; conduct guided by such a doctrine. 2) the conception that all values, rights, and duties originate in individuals.
individuality - total character peculiar to and distinguishing an individual from others: personality
It seems to me that individualism has, for the americans, taken on the meaning of individuality - a person's creativity, originality, and freedom in being oneself. However, it seems that for the french students, the words have remained distinct - individualism is a belief in the supremacy of the individual, and individuality is a character trait. In the context of French society, it makes sense that individualism would be somewhat negative. For the Americans, I think the two words have blended to the point that they are both positive. (although to the extent that individualism remains distinct as a philosophy, expressed when people said the word "freedom," it is positive, not negative.)
Interesting connotations for society. I'd be interested to hear if the French students agree that this is the difference.
Jérôme - 09:23am Oct 25, 2004
Je note simplement qu'il doit y avoir quelque part un bon individualisme et un mauvais mais que le bon porte un autre nom. Parce que l'individualisme, au départ, pour lui c'est mal parti. L'individualisme est un concept d'emblée largement connoté négatif. Là où il y a de l'individu, toujours c'est mal vu. L'individu est plutôt un sale individu ; comme disait coluche : "pas tibulaire, mais presque" ! On notera que quand l'individu est bien, il n'est plus un individu mais une personne : une belle personne, une personne remarquable. Entre les deux dans l'équivoque, on a le personnage qui peut être un peu douteux mais souvent haut en couleur.
Le bon individualisme donc, qui n'est pas un individualisme, doit être dans la version bien quelque chose comme : l'épanouissement personnel, l'expression de soi, etc. A quoi quand même pas mal de monde aspire.
Kegham - 09:35am Oct 25, 2004
Tout ça c'est bien beau! Mais posez vous la question... Qu'est ce que l'individualisme aujourd'hui?
Le pot pourri de toutes les occurences pas bien de l'individualisme est vaste. On ne sait plus où s'arrêter : l'indifférence à l'autre, l'irrespect, l'irresponsablité (routière ou autre), l'insécurité, les incivilités, la mauvaise éducation des enfants et des parents, le sexe et la cloppe avant l'âge, la vie à la colle, le divorce, la famille monoparentale, etc. l'école bien sûr déjà citée, mais aussi péle-mèle la drogue, la prostitution sur les maréchaux, etceu. C'est à chacun son panier de la ménagère.
J'aimerais trouver des gens qui reussiraient à me donner des occurences positives de l'individualisme.
Alejandro - 01:21am Oct 26, 2004
This is what I can think of when I think of individualism:
Einstein and General Relativity - He built up that and the Special Relativity theories by himself. When he started collaborating with others on Quantum Mechanics he didn't go too far.
Stephen Hawking - Also a great physicist, he developed much of the modern theories of black holes and other rarities of the macroscopic universe. What makes his story even more "individual" is that he was diagnosed a degenerative neural motor disease when he was relatively young and he has fought against it and lived on, doing great work on his own while turning incapable to move even his fingers or use his voice!
Andrew Wiles - He solved alone Fermat's last theorem, a problem that had remained unsolved for almost 300 years.
Lance Armstrong - You all know his story.
Sorry for being such a nerd and talking mostly of science. Anyway, maybe this helps Kegham and others see why Americans cherish individualism so much. I do see how too much individualism is bad. Besides, I didn't mention many other great mathematicians and physicists which did collaborate and achieved great things.
Evans - 01:41am Oct 26, 2004
With regards to Alejandro's comment, I read "Fermat's Enigma" a few years ago, and seem to remember some japanese people's names on a theorem that was central to the proof Wiles developed of the theorem. Although, it has been a few years and my memory isn't so good.
So far as Einstein goes, he didn't do badly with quantum mechanics, seeing as how his discovery of the photoelectric effect is what ultimately warranted his nobel prize. Granted this was alone, but I think his biggest failure (and collaborative effort) was on unified theory. Aside from these two minor details, I definitely agree with Alejandro.
Idividualism takes on the meaning of uniqueness for me. I think it's very hard to have an original thought, and I think original thoughts are central for the development of society. For me, to strive to be an individual is to strive for these previously unthought thoughts, which could never be found collaboratively, and coincidentally to strive for the good of society. I therefore very much agree with Alejandro: the reason I have a positive association with "individualism" is that I relate it to scientific advancement.