You see a student next to you cheating on an exam. / Vous voyez un étudiant à côté de vous qui triche lors d'un examen.



cheating not too bad in France
Posted by Sergi on March 1, 2004
There is a very big difference between the French and the American reactions to this situation. In the US many students would tell the teacher that they have seen someone cheating. In France, not only nobody would tell the teacher, but there are some students who would use the opportunity to cheat as well.
Is cheating common in France? I understand that there it is not considered such a bad thing as it is in the US. Would you feel good getting a good grade because you have cheated?
In some cases cheating may require more skill than learning the material...

Relative v/s absolute grades
Posted by Felipe on March 2, 2004
Here is one hypothesis that tries to explain the different reactions from both sides. In the States grades are usually based on a relative scale, meaning that the final grade you get depends on your performance with respect to all the other students. Then, the fact that some people cheat might have a direct impact on your grade. In contrast, it seems that in France grades are usually based on an absolute scale. Therefore whatever the other students do does not affect your personal academic situation. Does this make sense?

Relative Scales
Posted by Paul on March 2, 2004
Actually, the scales are only really relative in College - prior to that they're generally fixed (though perhaps inflated). I believe the disparity is more related to the values we hold - we highly value honesty and truthfulness. To be dishonest is to cheat the system, which is designed to give everyone the opportunity to excell. If everyone else cheats, you have no chance of getting ahead. Since getting ahead is supposed to be through hard honest work, someone who cheats is violating the code of ethics that we strongly support. What do the french value most? I believe we saw a parallel to this with the friend who lied to you - the US responses were highly unfavorable towards this person - they were dishonest.

Cheating not too bad ?!
Posted by Caroline on March 2, 2004
Je reste partager quant aux réponses françaises. D'une part, mon optimisme me laisse croire que, lorsque mes compatriotes s'exclament "Quelle chance, je vais tricher avec lui !", c'est une blague, une phrase pleine d'ironie... D'autre part, au vu des situations auxquelles j'ai pu être confrontée, cette réaction est typiquement celle d'un tricheur et cela me désole.

Effectivement, en France nous n'irons pas cafeter car nous considérons que le tricheur est seul responsable de sa bêtise. Il doit certes l'assumer en cas de découverte mais aussi réussir à vivre avec !! Comme tu le dis, je ne pense pas que l'on puisse être fier de soi pour avoir obtenu son diplome en trichant : c'est une question de conscience, de sens moral !

Personnellement, voir autant de tricheurs m'écoeure ! Et ce pour plusieurs raisons : 1- du fait qu'ils trichent (ils ne sont honnêtes ni envers eux-mêmes, ni envers le système), 2- leur réussite est usurpée, 3- ils trichent impunément : ils ne sont pas punis et de plus, ils trichent considérant que c'est normal !!

Peut-être suis-je trop axée sur le principe d'une évaluation honnête ? Je ne comprends pas comment pouvoir s'évaluer si l'on utilise des subterfuges... Comment savoir où on en est si les règles sont faussées dès le départ ?

De plus, la compétition est aussi très importante à mes yeux. Le problème résultant de la tricherie est que le classement n'est pas représentatif du niveau réel de chacun. Mais Vois-tu ce n'est pas tant le classement qui m'importe mais plutôt l'idée que s'en font les gens. Tu vois, c'est particulièrement énervant d'être relégué au fin fond du classement quand on est l'un des seuls à ne pas avoir tricher %


Cheating not too bad !! (suite et fin)
Posted by Caroline on March 2, 2004
... Tu vois, c'est particulièrement énervant d'être relégué au fin fond du classement quand on est l'un des seuls à ne pas avoir tricher ! C'est blessant car les professeurs n'ont pas forcément tout vu, tout compris...

Mais dans tous les cas, je pense que mes camarades considèrent aussi que la tricherie n'est pas quelque chose de commun ou de normal.


relative/absolute grades
Posted by Caroline on March 2, 2004
Pour répondre à Felipe: 1-système absolu : en France la plupart des diplomes s'obtiennent en atteignant une note minimale. Il s'agit d'avoir un certain niveau et à chaque niveau correspond une mention. En ce sens, les notes des autres ne nous concernent pas directement puisque seuls nos notes comptent pour l'obtention du diplome.
Cependant, beaucoup d'écoles opèrent par classement. De fait, notre rang peut être important pour notre propre estime et pour envisager une poursuite d'études bien côtée.

2- système relatif : De plus, certaines écoles recrutent sur concours. Dans ce cas-là, les élèves acceptées sont les meilleurs, les premiers au classement. Ce qui signifie que certains étudiants, même s'ils ont de très bonnes notes au concours pourront être refusés (sur 300 étudiants, on ne prendra que les 90 premiers même si le 150eme a lui aussi de bonnes notes inférieures à celles du 90e !). Le meilleur exemple est le concours d'accès à la deuxième année de médecine, où le dernier étudiant sélectionné (ou le premier non reçu) peut avoir plus de 14/20 de moyenne... Tous les élèves qui avaient le niveau (plus de 10/20) mais qui ne sont pas pris car leur rang est après le nombre d'élèves à recruter (dans mon exemple à partir du 91e)sont appelés des "reçus collés", c'est à dire qu'ils sont reçus sur la base de leurs résultats mais, du fait du nombre de places limitées, ils ne seront pas sélectionnés.


Relative scales
Posted by Caroline on March 2, 2004
Je suis tout à fait d'accord avec toi avec toutes les valeurs d'honnêteté, d'éthique, de véracité... Je ne peux qu'aquiescer tes propos cependant du fait de la différence de système (absolu en France), la tricherie relève d'un aspect purement personnel dans le sens où il n'affectera que le tricheur (heureusement d'ailleurs !) Personnellement, je ne peux pas concevoir de tricher car cela mettrait en doute mes valeurs de travail, d'effort, de mérite et de fierté ! Après chacun son problème...

Juste un petit message
Posted by Cyril on March 2, 2004
Juste un petit message pour soutenir Carolyne de Juvisy ( à lire Ju-vi-saïe en français). Voilà, bonne journée à tous.

Punishment
Posted by Meg on March 2, 2004
What are the consequences in France of cheating on an exam? Here, they are pretty serious, because cheating violates the code of ethics that Paul mentioned and having that mark against your honor can affect your life in more ways than simply failing a test. Students need letters of recommendation for college and for other organizations, such as the National Honor Society, or the scouting programs, and cheating on an exam rules out a lot of people you can ask to recommend you. In the case of the Honor Society, an incident like that could get you thrown out altogether. Are there any parallels to that in France? What are the consequences?

inconvenience
Posted by Nicholas on March 2, 2004
Many American claim they would turn someone in if they saw them cheating on an exam, but I would argue that such behavior is not as common as it seems. At least as an undergraduate at MIT, I constantly witness (and occasionally partake in) copying problem sets. It is no different than cheating, but on a smaller level, where the final grade is not as strongly affected by the outcome. So from that observation, one could argue that the main situation in which Americans report cheaters is when there are high stakes involved, and their grade could be affected. However, I also witness people studying together for important exams all the time. Such behavior contradicts the competitive motivations that I just described, because they are helping others achieve higher scores, and likewise maybe decreasing their comparative score. So perhaps students report cheaters on an ethical basis? But as I just pointed out, no copying of problem sets is reported, and that is ethically the same thing as cheating on a test. Then why, I ask, do the Americans claim they would report students that they saw cheating?

competitiveness
Posted by Jan on March 2, 2004
I think that copying problem sets is slightly different, because solving problem sets should serve more to help a person learn the material rather than determine the final grade. So it seems to me that if you somebody copies your homework, they only undermine themselves, and not gain very much unfair advantage. (But I'm not sure, I wasn't an undergrad here.) Also, regarding the "competitiveness" issue, I think that studying together for exams doesn't contradict that idea at all. Just like forming partnerships in a competitive business environment, which is beneficial for both parties, cooperation will exist even if you are trying to beat the others. You are not cooperating with the whole class, but only with a selected few, and you improve your own chances.

Relative benefits maximization
Posted by Susanna on March 2, 2004
From the previous comments, we can see that the academic competition in France is fierce. However, these comments have yet to explain why students in the United States are, on one hand, more resentful towards cheaters than students from France do (by reporting the deeds of the cheaters to the authority). Students in the States also tend to collaborate in doing their problem sets. This seems that the Americans have an ultimate focus on, apart from justice and morals, maximizing the relative benefits to individuals.
Moreover, occasionally, such kind of collaboration induces a second level of cheating. This is why there is a need of the regulations on the collaboration of work at MIT. Is the collaboration of work also common among university students in France?

shadows of the past
Posted by Jan on March 3, 2004
I think that in Europe there is a certain amount of cynicism towards honesty and ethical behavior in public affairs. There have been periods in history when it wasn't exactly the honest and trustworthy who were rewarded for their efforts. Often those who spoke of honesty in a lofty way were those to be trusted the least. Maybe there is a feeling lingering in the society that more than relying on ideals of ethics, it serves one better to develop mechanisms of support within a social group, such as the student body. This is often quite counterproductive, as in the case of cheating, let alone cases like corruption in business. I can't speak much about France, but certainly in many European countries, it is considered more despicable to report on somebody cheating than to actually cheat.

Telling the Teacher
Posted by Alicia on March 4, 2004
What was really interesting to me, as was already noted by some others in the forum, was the fact that no one on the French side said that they would tell the teacher if they saw someone cheating. I think I agree with Nicholas' point that it also uncommon for an America, in practice, to "tattletale" on someone else. However, there were at least some people who said they would report the cheating to the teacher. I was wondering, why do you think it is that no one on the French side said they would tell the teacher? Is it to avoid the image of being the teacher's pet (le chouchou)? Or is there some sort of peer pressure that might exists which discourages one student from reporting another? I know that both of these factors play a role in American schools and contribute to why some people would decide not to report the incident. Is this the case in France, as well? Or is it simply that one always assumes that "someone else will do it"?

Someone else's problem?
Posted by Katherine on March 4, 2004
As many other people observed in the forum, no one, absolutely no one on the French side actually felt the need to report the person for cheating. I'm wondering, just how important are tests in France? Because I would assume that, if they're important, some people would be willing to report them. And that leads to the question...how competitive are the students in France? I hear varying reports from, "It's really competitive," to "Competition? What competition?" And also, how strict are the laws in the schools of France about cheating? Does that include plagiarism and copyrights? What is the punishment should a student be caught cheating?

too scared to talk now?
Posted by Sergi on March 4, 2004
Caroline, thanks for all your comments. I agree with your perspective about cheating, and you have a point when you feel disappointed about other people cheating. The problem is that, after all your explanations, your classmates that don't think like you will be too scared to say anything in the forum. From the original reactions to the situation it seemed that some French students didn't consider cheating as something so terrible... Why are they not making any comments now?

stories about cheating
Posted by Sergi on March 4, 2004
Ok, I'll reply from the other side now.
I went to high school in Europe, and I can say that several students not only cheated regularly in the exams, but they had no problem with telling it to all their friends. They seemed to be proud of being able to cheat without being caught. It was like a game: teachers had to be more alert to prevent students from cheating, and students had to develop more sophisticated techniques to cheat without being caught.
Of course I haven't seen anything like this in at MIT.

european defense
Posted by Jan on March 4, 2004
I agree completely with Sergi. If I can say something for the European side too (but I would be really happy to hear from the French), it seems to me that in Europe there is a different feeling of balance in school. It's more like "us against them", an alliance of students to survive the hardships of education. :-) Of course there is competition hidden underneath, but primarily you want to maintain good relations with your classmates. There is no way you would report on somebody else, unless you really desire to stay alone in the jungle. Maybe bizarre, but that's how it works, and there might be historical reasons as I wrote earlier. But then I come from a post-communist country, so my perspective might be different.

Copying PSETs
Posted by Paul on March 4, 2004
I suppose I've really have only been aware of copying problem sets in freshman and some sophomore classes, usually where there were large groups of close friends taking the class such that they'd be willing to "do their friend a favor" - all be it that the favor is really a disfavor. It quite a bit harder to report a friend than just a random other student in the class. I don't think I've ever heard of someone getting reported, though I do know of a few people who were caught copying psets by the professor. So I suppose I'm saying that I think less people would actually report someone than have said they would. Are there similar trends in France? Are there certain classes or certain years of study where cheating is more common?

punition
Posted by Caroline on March 9, 2004
En France, si un élève est "pris la main dans le sac", il sera certainement interdit de concours et d'examens pendant 5 ans. Cela signifie qu'un plus de ne pas pouvoir obtenir de diplome durant cette période, il n'aura pas le droit non plus de passer son permis de conduire.

"caffeter"
Posted by Caroline on March 9, 2004
Dénoncer un élève qui triche (et le terme "dénoncer" n'est pas innocent) est quelque chose de très mal perçu en France. Comme le disait Alicia et Jan, il y a la peur d'être rejeté par les autres élèves : on est le dissident (on a parlé au prof : on est de l'autre côté de la barrière !!), on a rompu le pacte de solidarité... Je ne sais pas si c'est vraiment un pacte mais j'ai remarqué que dans plusieurs écoles où j'étais (mis à part maintenant à l'IUP MNT), les élèves considéraient les professeurs comme des tyrans, des personnes non humaines ou qui n'ont pas été jeunes, élèves... je dirais que le monde des profs est considéré comme tout à fait détaché de celui des élèves et que le seul lien les reliant est celui de l'autorité que leur procure leur savoir !

C'est pourquoi le fait de dénoncer un autre élève ou étudiant est très mal perçu. Il y a effectivement le côté "chouchou" mais plus que ça, c'est peut-être un aspect "lèche botte". Le fait de "caffeter" est donc très négatif. Dans un sens, je me demande pourquoi on le ferait ? Le rôle du surveillant ou du prof n'est-il pas justement de faire en sorte que la tricherie soit impossible ? Nous sommes juste étudiants, notre rôle n'est pas de remplacer le surveillant... nous avons notre travail à faire, des efforts à fournir, etc. tous ces aspects sont suffisamment importants pour s'y attacher à plein temps sans avoir à s'occuper d'autre chose !


Whoa...
Posted by Katherine on March 11, 2004
I am utterly amazed by Caroline's comment. It's hard to imagine a school in which students would feel betrayed if another student turned them in for cheating. And it's really hard to understand the teacher vs student mentality. Sure, the teachers give quizzes, tests and homework...but it's understood that that's their job. And many students I know are great friends with their professors. I know that one of my favorite things to do after school (back when I was in junior high and high school, of course) would be to stay back and chat about life, class, art, whatever with the professor. Are there any instances in which students become friends with their professors? And, in that instance, if they should turn a fellow student in for cheating, how will others look upon him/her, in light of his/her relationship with the professor? Or is that totally unheard of?

Relationnel
Posted by Caroline on March 23, 2004
Je suppose qu'en France le lien d'autorité (presque hiérarchique) entre élèves/étudiants et les professeurs est plus marqué qu'aux USA. Pour ma part, j'ai souvent développé des liens amicaux avec mes professeurs mais généralement ce n'était pas par rapport à la matière qu'ils enseignaient mais plus avec des activtés extra-scolaires (associations sportives, artistiques ou le journal interne...) où l'on prenait le temps de se conniatre, de discuter... Disons que le lien élève/enseignant étant moins marqué car les positions de chacun étaient plus mutuelles dans l'interactivité de l'apport, comme une sorte d'échange d'égal à égal. Plus que le respect, il y a la crainte que ressentent certains élèves et peut-être aussi le manque d'intérêt mutuel. Certains profs ne sont pas très expensifs ou communicatifs ! Leur "non avenance" n'incite pas à communiquer avec eux sur des sujets d'actualité ou plus personnels. J'ai remarqué aussi que lorsque des liens se développent, il y a souvent un intérêt commun, une passion qui rapproche, une façon de penser ou juste un intérêt (qui n'a pas eu de prof un peu mentor, maître à penser qui prenait le temps de discuter ou de faire parler, de mettre en lumière la pensée de son élève...). Je crois aussi que l'attitude de l'élève ou du prof suggère plus ou moins l'ouverture de celui-ci. Je trouve souvent les élèves peu matures, peu ouverts aux personnes plus âgées ou possédant le "savoir". Je ne sais pas si c'est de la jalousie, de la peur ou la crainte de se mélanger !! Le ragrd des autres élèves est certainement pesant, et comme je le disais précédemment, le fait de parler avec un prof nous fait passer pour le fayot, le dissident ! Ce n'est effectivement pas parce que l'

relationnel (suite)
Posted by Caroline on March 23, 2004
Ce n'est effectivement pas parce que l'on discute avec quelqu'un ou que l'on fait un bout de chemin ensemble pour rentrer chez soi qu'on essaie de soudoyer de meilleures notes !!! C'est pourquoi je comprend et suis d'accord avec les propos de Katherine. Mais la relation "privilégiée" que l'on peut entretenir avec un professeur ne doit jamais transparaître lorsque l'on est en classe au risque de subir les foudres des camarades (jalousie ?). Il est alors amusant de constater le double jeu qui s'opère parfois (alternance vouvoiement/tutoiement...) !! Ce commentaire sur le relationnel s'établissant entre prof/étudiant ne change en rien le rapport à la tricherie (ne jamais dénoncer !). On peut en parler mais ne pas citer de nom se révèle la règle de base !