A classmate speaks about his/her personal religious beliefs in a class discussion. / Un/e camarade de classe parle de ses croyances religieuses personnelles lors d'une discussion de classe.



Strangeness...
Posted by Katherine on March 1, 2004
It seems that, from the responses, that Americans are quite similar to the French in their reactions regarding religious beliefs. Based on the responses for this category, the Americans seem to have a slight more...negative view of religion (since there were a few people who would ignore said beliefs or intervene and bring the subject back to a more secular topic). Now, I am aware that what I am going to say might be inflammatory. However, I feel that this question needs to be asked. Okay. Here goes. In a previous discussion regarding religion and public spaces, I distinctly recall several people at Paris II finding the idea of religion in a public place (such as a school) distasteful. Yet, the responses to this category indicates that the French are perfectly fine and even happy about someone bringing up a discussion on religion in the middle of class. Now, I'm confused because the information seems contradictory. I'd imagine that, if the French do indeed find it important to keep religion away from schools and public places (think scarves, religious symbols and all the whatnot), wouldn't at least some of the responses in this category be a bit more discouraging of religious discussion in class? I apologize if I offend anyone, but I am truly puzzled by this.

Vision de Matthieu
Posted by Matthieu on March 2, 2004
En France, il y a certains sujets qui peuvent provoquer un débat relativement animé. La religion fait partie de ces sujets.

Dans notre classe, il y a en majorité des catholiques très pratiquant, puis des catholiques peu pratiquant et enfin des non croyant. Il n'y a pas musulman et pas de juifs dans notre formation.

Les débats sur la religion sont souvent animés car, en général, certaines personnes ne supporte pas que l'on discute leur façon de voir les choses par rapport à la religion. (ex: même façon de penser depuis 2000 ans, les prises de position du Pape par rapport au port du préservatif, etc...) En France, l'école est laïque donc non religieuse par conséquent il n'y a pas de signes distinctifs apparents.

En règle générale, la religion est une croyance propre et personnelle qui n'est pas exposée aux autres et qui ne doit pas être affichée à tous sauf si un thème y fait référence directement.


vision de moi :)
Posted by vincent on March 2, 2004
Je suis tout a fait d'accord sur le fait que la religion dans notre classe est completement tabou...on ne peut pas dire son point de vue sur l'église sans se faire traiter d'intolérant...Bref je me demande si ce n'ai pas une réaction protectrice vis à vis d'une conviction qui leur échappe...En resume surement que beaucoup de choses qui sont dites ici sont vrai, ils le savent, mais ne veulent pas le reconnaitre....Il est vrai qu'il est preferable de se raccrocher a de vieilles idéologies qui ont faites leur preuve au moyen age plutôt que de faire évoluer une religion...l'inconnu fait peur et les gens ont besoin de se sentir rassuré. Quand on voit le point de vue du Pape sur le préservatif, on peut voir qu'il s'agit effectivement de conviction datant du moyen-âge...

Vision de Cyril
Posted by Cyril on March 2, 2004
Comme je l'avait déjà exprimée sur le forum pour le mot "religion", je crois que la plupart des débats qui tournent autour de ce sujet ne sont jamais constructifs. Le but est finalement de se tapper dessus, ce qui confirme le fait pour moi que la religion est avant tout un pretexte et une cause de divisions et par conséquent de guerres. C'est pour cela que même si chacun a le droit de penser ce qu'il veut et se faire ce qu'il veut de sa vie (en se conformant ou pas à des principes), la tolérance veut qu'on ne parle pas de ses opinions religieuses à l'université et plus généralement à l'école. Sachant que cela ne signifie surtout pas que tout le monde doit penser la même chose. Pour moi, donc, quand quelqu'un parle de ses croyances à l'école, je rejoint l'opinion de l'étudiant du MIT qui a dit "Good for him". Toutefois, je doute sincèrement que de tels genre de débats ou dialogues soit constructif et favorise une bonne entente générale. Quelle est votre opinion sur le sujet ?

parents and religion
Posted by Howard on March 3, 2004
From my experience, people are usually pretty considerate when talking about religion. I have many friends who are religious, and they usually avoid any topic related to religion if they know that there are people around them who are not. The only "lengthy" conversation I've had related to religion has been with my parents. In France, do most children share the same religious beliefs as their parents? If not, how does that affect the parent-child relationship, if at all?

Learning from others
Posted by Kezia on March 4, 2004 12:26 AM
I actually welcome religious discussion. The only way we will get past certain stereotypes and hangups about religion is talking about the differences. I would agree that these debates, in the classroom setting, may not be constructive, rather, people will get offended and they can cause more harm than good. I would say in general religious discussion is still taboo. Are there opportunities in France for people from different religious groups to get together and discuss their faiths?

Homogeneity and France (I have the sinking feeling I spelled that wrong...)
Posted by Katherine on March 4, 2004
From the French responses, it seems that a large chunk of the people who consider themselves 'French' are either of the Catholic Christian religion or non-religious. Thus, it seems likely that, should religion be discussed in class, that religion will be of the Catholic faith or a Christian faith similar to that (I think someone said something to that extent in one of the responses). Now, from some responses in other categories, I've gathered that there is quite a bit of friction between the Muslim community in France and the Catholic/Christian (or non-religious) community in France. I can't help but wonder what would be the result if someone chose to discuss religion in class and if the religion that person chose to discuss were one of the many forms of Judaism or Islam. Would that change make a difference? And how, again hypothetically, how would the French react if someone decided to discuss Buddhism or one of the other Eastern religions? Would there be a difference? In case I'm making anyone uncomfortable or offended, I apologize. But it's been nagging at me at the back of my mind...

Learning
Posted by Paul on March 4, 2004
I'm not sue that one ought to expect religious discussions to be "constructive" - I'm not sure in what way you would expect them to be constructive. I would expect them to merely be educational - introduce you to new ways to explain your own faith and to understand the motivations of other faiths. To that end, a few people on the US side said they would look forward to the opportunity to learn something about the other person's faith. The closest equivalent on the French side were the numerous people who said they'd be happy to enter in the debate or discussion. I did get the impression, though, that the French side was much more interested in seeing who could provide the best arguments. Is that a fair assesment? While it's probably a bit of a rebuke, I thought the person on the US side who said that the discussion should be moved away from any particular ideaology is presenting a rather naive representation of discussion - if one does not have an ideaology, there isn't much to discuss. It's probably even instructive to understand the roots of ones ideaology. This can definately go overboard - one need not know the history of everything about religion X to come to understand its values and a have an idea of what they're based on. I'd also like to know the answer to Katherine's question - what would the reaction be if the religion was non-christian? Personally, I'd welcome a disussion about another religion - I'd like to learn more about how they work.

Faking It
Posted by Paul on March 4, 2004
There were two people on the US side who's response amounted to pretending to be listening. It made me wonder how much this happens in the US - if you're not intersted or you're not paying attention, sometimes people tend to just pretend they're paying attention, perhaps becaues the other person is going to tell you what they're telling you whether you want to hear it or not. It's rather deceptive, though it's I think generally perceived as more polite, depending on who is talking. Is this unheard of in France? If someone is telling you something and you really don't care, do you just let them know up front or do you let them say their piece first while basically ignoring them? Or perhaps actually listen, even though you'd rather not?

is this forum taboo?
Posted by Nicholas on March 5, 2004
Now I know that religion might be a touchy subject in France, but it sure would be nice if some more French students would participate in the Forum. Anyway, I agree with Kezia in the fact that religious discussion is the best way to get around misunderstandings and stereotypes between different religions. I don't think anyone should be offended solely because someone else wants to discuss religion with them. In my opinion, a class discussion is an ideal time to discuss religion, while keeping in mind the varying beliefs of the classmates. I had heard (through this forum) that a law has been passed in France banning the display of religious symbols in public schools. I'm curious, how do you French students feel about this law?

What type of devotion to religion?
Posted by Peter on March 5, 2004
Cyril, my feeling is that religious debates are in fact constructive, either in the classroom, in the workplace, among friends, or anywhere else, so long as the person speaking is speaking for himself and not for anyone else. Too often I've seen people often speak out of a mindless devotion, often "duckspeaking" (to quote Orwell's 1984), almost never taking the time to think about why they believe what they believe and, consequently, getting quickly angry and animated when those beliefs are called into question. I think, though, as soon as people begin to personally evaluate the truths of their religion rather than letting parents, religious authorities, friends, and family do it for them, calm, rational, and constructive religious discussion is better facilitated and even enlightening for those taking part in the discussion. Do you think that most people in France who take part in these debates genuinely feel devoted to the ideas, values, and truths represented by their respective religions or do so because of an irrational compulsion to feel accepted by a given religious culture?

Answer to Peter - Nicholas - Paul - Katherine - Kezia and Howard
Posted by Cyril on March 9, 2004
Tout d'abord, Nicholas, je tiens à te dire que ce forum n'est pas du tout tabou, mais que chacun de nous essaie de se concentrer sur un forum car vous êtes très actifs sur l'ensemble des forums, et nous ne pouvons pas tous participer à tous les forums... sorry. Tout d'abord, je tiens à préciser quelque chose. Mon commentaire sur la place des débats autour de ses croyances doit bien être remis dans son contexte : je parlais de discussions "à l'école", et non entre amis, en famille... Il est vrai également que j'ai peut être eu tort de dire que de tels débats ne sont jamais constructifs. Le fait est que discuter avec d'autres de religion peut être agréable, car comme l'a dit Kezia, il s'agit du meilleur moyen de renverser les préjugés et autres à prioris. Toutefois, j'ai insisté sur le fait qu'avec "certaines personnes", le débat n'est absolument pas constructif. Ces mêmes personnes se croient attaquées quand on remet en question leurs croyances ou qu'on touche à "leur religion", et vont jusqu'à traiter les autres d'intolérants parcequ'ils ne sont pas d'accord avec ce qu'elles pensent... Quand les gens sont étroits d'esprit, on ne peut pas discuter d'un sujet aussi important que la religion. Mais je tiens à vous dire qu'en France, il est possible de discuter librement et ouvertement de ses croyances religieuses !

Answer to ... final part
Posted by Cyril on March 9, 2004
Le fait est qu'en France, il existe plusieurs religions. Il est parfois beaucoup plus constructif de discuter avec quelqu'un qui a des croyances religieuses complètement opposée, car le but est là d'apprendre de l'autre. Beaucoup ne sont pas assez ouverts pour remettre en question leurs croyances et essayer de s'approprier des croyances personnelles (qu'elles soient les mêmes que ses parents ou non) et non de reproduire un modèle sans se poser de questions. Toutefois, en France, je le répète, de tels débats n'ont pas à avoir lieu à l'école, car l'école est laïque (sans lien avec la politique ou la religion). En ce qui concerne ta question, Nicholas, je te renvoie au forum du mot religion, où tu trouvera un commentaire de ma part sur la loi sur le voile en France à l'école.