Date:         Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:30:54 EDT
From: where's that brass ring? <mbarker@MIT.EDU>
Subject:      FILLER: The mail goes where?

[with apologies for the dryness...]

Sigh.  I really wish I understood this kind of controversy better.

In the meantime, for those who aren't quite sure what all the bluster
and gab is about, let me explain.

When you send a message to writers@mitvma.mit.edu, it rattles through
the networks until it gets to mitvma.mit.edu.  At mitvma, the program
known as listserv grabs your message, gets the list of members of
writers (over 1,100 and climbing!), and starts sending out a copy to
each and every person on the list.

[the message goes round and round, ooooo...and it's copied at mitvma...]

When listserv is making that copy to send to each person, there are some
questions it needs to have answered.  As listowner, I get to make the
rules which listserv follows.

The one that we're talking about right now tells listserv how to make up
a "Reply-To:" field in the message header.  Simplified, this field is
how listserv tells your mailer where to send a message when you press
"reply" (or whatever that may be in your mailer).  I.e., I post a
message, listserv copies it to you, and you press reply--how does your
mailer figure out where to send the reply?  The "Reply-To:" field!

Right now, listserv is set to EITHER leave the original "Reply-To:"
field alone OR make up a "Reply-To:" field consisting of the original
author's address.  That means that when you press reply at your
mailer, you should automatically get the originating author's address
(occasionally, you might get their "other" address, but it is where
the originating author wanted the mail to go).

If you really want your reply to go to the list, you then have to edit
the address field (possibly via point-and-click).

(which gives you a moment to contemplate whether this message should
really go to an individual or the list!  think before you go public,
and spare over 1,100 people the trouble:)

So what's the problem?  Glad you asked...

The generous folks who brought us Eudora (a popular mail program) put
an option in their program to grab more addresses out of the message.
(see tools -> options -> reply) It's called "Reply-to-all" and what it
does is to grab the "Reply-To:" address and the "To:" address (I
haven't actually done this, but the folks who provide help with Eudora
at MIT tell me it grabs just about every address in the headers,
ignoring the niceties of the mail protocol.  Incidentally, here at
MIT, we recommend people NOT use this feature of Eudora.).

What's so bad about that?

Well, as some of the recent posters have noted, overusing this
"feature" can result in the originating author getting multiple copies
of the mail.  One goes to them from the "Reply-To:" address (the way
go...ah, that is, tink expected it to work), one goes to them from
your posting to the list (not unexpected, but the expectation was that
you might edit the "To:" field, not just add to it), and if the world
is feeling very perverse, they might even get a few more (I've been
told that in the worst case, Eudora will happily pick up From:,
Sender:, Cc:, even X-Sender: fields and send out multiple copies to
every address it can find?  Is it really that bad?).

What kind of solutions are there?

1.  Tradition!

Well, folks have suggested going back to the previous setup.  I don't
think anyone realizes just how messed up that was. It was the default,
which says IF the original author put a "Reply-To:" field in the
message, leave it alone, OTHERWISE put a "Reply-To:" field with the list
address in it on the message.  As a result, hitting "reply" in mailers
sometimes sent messages to the author and sometimes sent them to the
list.

I know I regularly got questions about why pressing "Reply" sometimes
went one place and sometimes went somewhere else, and I used to explain,
along with recommending that people LOOK at where the message was going.
Frankly, I don't think anyone ever understood it.

So messages went...well, places that the sender didn't expect.  And we
regularly had fights due to messages that weren't intended for the
general public, but ... once you toss a firecracker in the toilet, it's
hard to pull it back out... (hum, not sure if that was the best metaphor
for the situation, but it does bring back soggy memories...)

The current setup occasionally means that messages go to the original
author and then have to be reposted to the list because they were
supposed to be public.  This seems a lot safer to me.  It does mean
authors sometimes have an extra copy of a reply, but if the world is
running right, this shouldn't happen very often... which brings me to
suggest my third possibility down there.

(sigh.  tradition always sounds so lovely, but there was a reason or two
that we changed...it really wasn't just for spite)

2.  How about a NEW tradition!

I could tell listserv to ignore the sender and just make a Reply-To with
the list address in it.

This means we'd go back to the days of "accidental" public broadcast of
private messages.

According to our local experts on Eudora, it also won't solve the
problem.  If people tell Eudora to "Reply-To-All", it will continue to
"sweep up" both the "Reply-To:" address AND the "From:" address,
resulting in the original author getting two or more copies of the
message...

So this option, as near as I can tell, would result in us having the
worst of both worlds--accidental "escape" of private mail PLUS multiple
copies of replies.  (Can you tell that I really don't think this is a
good idea?)

3.  Take my Eudora...Please?  Or at least don't use "Reply-To-All"

If Eudora respected the email protocol, this wouldn't even BE a problem.
And if people go to tools->options->reply and unset that "Reply-To-All"
option, most of the aggravation will go away -- pressing Reply will give
you one address, not several.  Then if you want to change it (to send
your reply to the list), go ahead.  (n.b., if you use ctrl-shift-R in
Eudora, you will still get Reply-To-All.  And if you do, you should look
at the addresses and clean them up, don't just take what the stupid
program stuffs in there.)

If you're really looking for convenience (e.g., you don't want to
remember how to type WRITERS@mitvma.mit.edu all the time) take a look at
Eudora nicknames.  Put a name in your nickname list, then when you want
to fill in the address, press ctrl-l, point-and-click the name, and
point-and-click To:  You don't even have to type!

(I know, I know, I'm asking a lot.  Imagine asking people to think about
who should be reading their messages, the individual or the list.  And
then imagine thinking that they might take a moment before posting to
see where they are sending it...just imagine...)

metaphorically challenged
tink