Date:         Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:12:39 EST
From: "tink, a tink a do..." <mbarker@MIT.EDU>
Subject:      FILLER: Catching Up...Assorted Nuts and Bolts

Well, the mills of the list have been running, and I've got quite a
bit of catching up to do.  (sorry, I went to a conference in real life
last week, so I wasn't able to spend much time trying to keep up with
the grist from the mills...)

Allow me to suggest a few bits and tilts, however, if I may.

First, let me point to some pieces of "How to Disagree Without Being
Disagreeable" by Suzette Haden Elgin, Ph.D. (ISBN 0-471-15705-8) (and
thanks to Anthony D for bringing this new publication to my attention!)

I think the points Dr. Elgin makes about the metaphor "Disagreement is
Combat" (with its roles of the winner, the loser, and the coward who
runs away; and the rule that every disagreement must end with a clear
winner and a clear loser -- about p. 80) are interesting to consider as
they apply to disagreements here on the list.  After all, suppose that
in place of that well-worn metaphor, we choose to use "Disagreement is
Carpentry" and look at disagreement as a form of construction, where we
are "building a mutual understanding that can serve as the foundation
for future interaction" (p. 86).  In this metaphor, it becomes important
to help each other put up a firm foundation, check the strength and
levelness of our construction, and so forth.

Building a disagreement together instead of fighting to the
death...could thinking like that change our interactions?  Wouldn't it
be interesting to find out?

Second, I also think the points that are made about two common metaphors
("Life is a Football Game" and "Life is a Traditional Classroom") may be
useful to consider (p. 89, roughly).  For example, in the Traditional
Classroom, huddling and working out a 'game plan' just isn't allowed!
Each student is supposed to work independently.  If someone is caught
exchanging notes, the teacher has to be very firm...

I'll leave our coaches to explain why we might want the defensive ends
to talk to each other a little bit before they take the field...or why
the chatter in the locker room between the quarters shouldn't be
broadcast...

[and for special bonus points, any of you may point to some of the
shortcomings of either of these metaphors for life, and treat us to
some possible other metaphors...like, life is...well, you know...life
is a trip, man!]

Third, allow me to explain a bit about the MIT environment.  I realize
that I sometimes forget that this isn't really visible from other
places, and it is different.

You see, there are several ways to run a mailing list here at MIT.
First, there is LISTSERV at mitvma.mit.edu (that's a specific host--a
mainframe, to be honest).  To put a list there, you request it, you do
some negotiation with the listserv administrators, and so on.  Back when
we moved writers to mitvma.mit.edu, I went through the discussions and
justifications, because I wanted the extra services that go with
it--public subscription, large membership, etc.  There are several kinds
of lists, incidentally, including moderated membership, moderated
posting, etc.  I've continued to keep writers as a public membership
list.

Second, there are "moira lists".  These are easily set up by any member
of the MIT community, but they have their limitations.  Basically, there
is no provision for public subscription (from outside MIT--inside is
different).  These lists are intended for small membership, relatively
low posting lists.  Frankly, I have a bunch of them, as do most MIT
people, and we use them for all kinds of things.

You might call these "lazy lists" or "informal lists" because while
setting them up and doing the membership changes is restricted to
members of MIT, any member has as many of these as they want and is free
to switch them around or otherwise handle all the administration as
desired.

Third, although I'm not personally running one right now, many MIT
members run mailing list software on their own systems.  For example, I
could run majordomo or some other software on tedeum.mit.edu or
megara.mit.edu (both "personal" systems) and bring up any flavor of list
I wanted to.

Now, one of the important points here is the LISTSERV doesn't "know"
anything about "moira lists", and neither of those systems "knows"
anything about what an individual may be running on their own systems.
So there isn't any deliberate hiding of a "moira list" from someone
asking LISTSERV about it--it just isn't the right place to ask.  And,
unfortunately, information about "moira lists" is not accessible from
outside MIT (I don't think anyone has ever raised the question of
whether they should be or not...).  And as for information about the
many private systems on our net--we just don't know, to be honest.  We
(the IT organization) can't (and really has no desire to) control all
the individual systems on the mit.edu network (which range from Joe
Frosh with a pc to the Media Lab, LCS, and other well-known
organizations).

That's more information than I usually dump on this list, so let me
stop here and try to catch up some more.  I have to admit, I'm posting
this mostly because I thought people thought I had done something
magic to make a "hidden list".  Sorry, it isn't that complicated, it's
just part of the MIT environment--a "moira list" is automatically
invisible to LISTSERV, because they are completely separate systems.

tink