Following entry is compedium of one of the longest flame-wars at MIT Sangam. For the uninitiated, let me elaborate here. Sometime during the end of IAP in 2004 Sangam members had a "pleasure" of getting their mailboxes flooded within next two days, not due to advertising spam, but the flame war which, as usual, started with a kindle! My saying any more will only delay you from enjoying the series of emails that circulated in Sangam mailing list, titled aptly as "A Response to Cynic". I am presenting all emails verbatim received in this regard chronologically below, starting with the still-unidentified-anonymous mail which sparked off the game.
I think this post will form nice memory to witnesses of the event while introduce new members to level of patriotism in Sangam community ;). You would notice nearly all people started their mail saying 'I hate to spam …', but still they did! Why are people so? And why did I take all the trouble to collect, edit and post it here? I am cynic in my own way :)
Disclaimer:
1. This post is for fun only and not intended offensively (or otherwise) to any sender.
2. Any person, whose mail is included here, if wishes to has his/her mail or name removed, please inform me.
Hello Utkarsh!
There is a petition drive for getting a Diwali postage stamp issued by the US Postal Service. They require 500,000 signatures. I am attaching the link for the petition below. This is something we can all be proud of. If you are interested, please take a moment to sign the petiiton and pass it on.
http://www.petitiononline.com/diwali03/petition.html
~MIT Hindu Students Council~
From: Utkarsh Sinha
Subject: [Sandesh] Diwali Postage Stamp
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:47:47 -0500 (EST)
Hi,
This is a worthy cause, worth sparing a minute of your time for - if it works out, it will be a small but nice tribute to the hundreds of thousands Indians who have made this country their second home and contributed richly to its culture, economy and growth.
Please take the time to sign the petition and also to forward it to as many people as you can.
Best wishes, MIT Sangam.
From: Anonymous Anonymous
:
folks
how about a UNITED STATES POSTAL stamp to commemorate the Gujarat riots and Babri demolition. Or something to commemorate our great truly Indian heritage like casteism and Sati.
Lot of true Indians in their "Second" home would be proud.
Got a petition for that ?
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:52:27 -0500
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: A response to the cynic
So what was your point? That casteism and sati overshadow every other Indian achievement? Perhaps Germany should cease to be because it was home to Nazis at one time. Same for Italy. What about Britain? They have plenty of racism. And hey, what about your hallowed 'second home'? They traded slaves. And there is plenty of racism still.
Though I have not made up my mind to support the cause for the postal stamp, I have also not made up my mind to condemn the Indian nation (and broadcast my ideas to all and sundry on top of that). Most of all, I have not made up my mind to write anonymous opinions.
Sincerely,
Swati Chaturvedi.
From: "Anonymous Anonymous"
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 16:29:46 -0500
yep! kinda agree you with that, however Germans and Italians donot "Commemorate" nazism / racism and ask third party -second home- nations to bend their laws to support their own agenda. Ever heard of "Separation of state n Church" and by extension Religion? Ever heard Christians petitioning Indian Government to commemorate a Christmas stamp - the religion of their former masters?
BTW Christians are 2 % of India and India is N-O-T their "Second" home. And they get killed, burned and raped for expecting basic human dignity. Perhaps you should petition somebody to rebuild Babri mosque - built by another one of your former Masters although in 14-th century.
You not supporting the stamp cause is your perspective or your problem, however if you let MIT desi community forums to be used - er A B U S E D - to serve some narrow agenda, you are being part of the problem. Critique won't make anybody an anti-national, however refuting reality when somebody shows you the mirror certainly would.
me - not anti-national or anti-india, just Anti - Hypocrats, living in their "Second" home who seem to have forgotten what their true "Heritage" is and where they came from.
still anonymous
From: Punyashloka Biswal
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
"Anonymous Anonymous wrote:
yep! kinda agree you with that, however Germans and Italians donot "Commemorate" nazism / racism and ask third party -second home- nations to bend their laws to support their own agenda. Ever heard of "Separation of state n Church" and by extension Religion? Ever heard Christians petitioning Indian Government to commemorate a Christmas stamp - the religion of their former masters?"
1. I don't think that Diwali is quite in the same class as nazism/racism. Granted, people die of hooch abuse and cracker misfirings, and children are worked in Sivakasi sweatshops - but please. No, seriously, they're asking to commemorate a festival that is a lot of people really enjoy, but that others are *indifferent* to. This is in contrast to commemorating, say, the destruction of the Babri masjid.
2. I wouldn't mind a Christmas stamp in India myself. I don't think that stamps always have to represent what each and every individual in the nation thinks. In particular, having a stamp commemorating a Hindu festival would not make the US a Hindu state (!)
"BTW Christians are 2 % of India and India is N-O-T their "Second" home. And they get killed, burned and raped for expecting basic human dignity. Perhaps you should petition somebody to rebuild Babri mosque - built by another one of your former Masters although in 14-th century."
3. You paint an extreme picture of the indignities that Christians in India are subjected to. If this comes from your experience, I am very sorry.
4. I don't see the point of the 'former Masters' rant that you're repeating here. Perhaps you'd care to explain.
"You not supporting the stamp cause is your perspective or your problem, however if you let MIT desi community forums to be used - er A B U S E D - to serve some narrow agenda, you are being part of the problem. Critique won't make anybody an anti-national, however refuting reality when somebody shows you the mirror certainly would."
5. I agree with you here that this message would best have been kept off sandesh. I believe, however, that junta is an opt-in discussion list, and that anything is fair game there. In the spirit of your own remarks, I would request you to *discontinue writing to sandesh*.
"me - not anti-national or anti-india, just Anti - Hypocrats, living in their "Second" home who seem to have forgotten what their true "Heritage" is and where they came from."
6. A lot of quotes, but I'm missing the irony or sarcasm you're (presumably) trying to express. I'm an Indian as well as a Hindu, and I know what heritage I get from both those. It could be argued that Hindus, not Indians, in the US, want a Diwali stamp. Personally, I don't see this need, but I support the right of said community to petition. So what exactly have I, or anyone else, forgotten?
"still anonymous"
7. What's more, I have a name too. I haven't forgotten that either.
Punya
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
To: Punyashloka Biswal
From: Parmesh Shahani
Why is the anonymity of Anonymous Anonymous such an issue? I am not saying that I agree with his position. However in the spirit of pluralism, doesn't everyone has a right to express his/her opinion, including the right to remain anonymous while doing so?
I'm just curious - I don't want to take away from the tension of the debate. (Which, I think is vitally needed, not just about religion but about other kinds of pluralities, including sexual, about which I have come to realize that a lot of us at MIT [by us, I'm referring to the desi community at MIT in general] have very ambiguously positions.)
Parmesh
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:09:00 -0500
From: Punyashloka Biswal
To: Parmesh Shahani
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
You're right - his anonymity isn't a big issue, at least not for me. It just seemed like a funny thing to point out at the time.
Punya
From: Amit Oberoi
To: Parmesh Shahani
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
This should have been sent earlier. Apologies, but it is still worth
watching. Install Quick Time
http://rugbyfootball.com/multimedia/videos/adidas_haka_ad.mov
From: "Anonymous Anonymous"
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:28:32 -0500
Please make an attempt to rise above your Manuistic and constipated thinking here. "Your Masters" being the Gora race and the central asian (mostly muslim) marauders who invaded, ruled and looted India all these centuries. Christian reference because they are sizable minority in India - unlike hindus/desis/casteists/browns etc in America. Babur just being one of those barbaric ruler who demolished temples and build mosques in 14-th century. While your brethren Hindus/casteist/desis/browns did the exact reverse in 1990s on national television - and proud of it. That act certainly needs a petition - but you are unable to see it. What you call "extreme picture of the indignities" tells me you are quite unaware of glories earned in Gujarat in 21-st century hindu nation. India needs more blindfolded cheerleaders and citizens like you.
The issue is not whether to commemorate a popular festival; it is whether to let a public forum -like Sandesh- to be hijacked by radical minority who have use it to serve their own ends - read "brown inferiority complex". How's that different than Nazis abusing media to promote their agenda? And how are you different than a newly-awakened Nazis who suddenly discovered their German nationhood needs to be promoted at the cost of other minorities - and what a cost.
And before promoting radical agenda like "Hindu Rate of Thinking" on rest of America, please read more on "Separation of State and Church" - which also applies to ALL religions - including what you call hinduism. For most people hinduism is personal, not something in need to be petitioned for.
PS: me not not angry or cynic or christian or muslim- just share a different - and unpopular - viewpoint and never felt the need to petition the G O V E R N M E N T to bend their rules to allow me to commemorate my festival.
-a hindu
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:41:55 -0500
From: Anoop Rao
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Dear Anon:
I'm not sure if your verbal diarrhea can compel us to get out of our constipated thinking.
"me - not anti-national or anti-india, just Anti - Hypocrats, living in their "Second" home who seem to have forgotten what
their true "Heritage" is and where they came from."
I thought Darwin said ALL of us were apes at one point. Maybe we still are. But he could be wrong, and maybe you
could care to share your exclusive knowledge of India's true "heritage" vis-a-vis any other.
And Babri Masjid was built in 1528, the 16th century, not the 14th.
With your circumlocution and your attempt to be fair, don't forget the atheists, lets have stamps for them as well - for Lords sake, they don't even have God on their side.
And btw, our second home is not a society, its an economy; because thanksgiving is not about the Pequot massacre. Its about the free-after-mail-in-rebate-for-the-made-in-%%%wan-CD-DVD-writer-so-that-%%%mart-can-pose-its-Q4-profit-and-spike-the-stock-market.
I'd prefer being a hypocrite.
-anoop
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 19:52:14 -0500
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
I normally do not reply to these sorts of emails. While I find flame wars to be occasionally amusing, many others do not, so I try not to exacerbate them. However, I have only limited ability to put up with such poor use of logic (a nice way of saying "raving idiocy") and extremely poor grammar.
The poor grammar in anonyms_boston's email is painfully obvious, so I will not comment on that further. The erroneous arguments in his or her email are so many that I give a response to each sentence individually.
"yep! kinda agree you with that, however Germans and Italians do not "Commemorate" nazism / racism and ask third party -second home- nations to bend their laws to support their own agenda."
1. In the original email, you brought up sati and the caste system as immoral aspects of the Indian culture. Nazism, racism and the slave trade were brought to illustrate the point that cultural immorality exists and has existed in all parts of the world, including Europe and North America. You now claim that commemorating Diwali is analogous to commemorating Nazism. Clearly, this is a completely invalid statement. Only if people were petitioning for "Sati Stamps" or something along those lines would you be able to draw a comparison to celebrating Nazism.
2. The idea of bending laws is clearly misguided. What is printed on a postage stamp is not at all a law.
"Ever heard of "Separation of state n Church" and by extension Religion?"
3. This is funny. Are you really naive enough to think the U.S. does such a good job of separating Church and State (particularly with a republican president)? Are you aware, for example, of the fact that a growing number of public schools teach creationism and refuse to educate students about evolution?
4. More importantly, the separation of Church and State is in many senses a statement of allowing religious freedoms. Disallowing a Diwali postage stamp while allowing a Christmas or Hanukah stamp is contrary to this notion.
> Ever heard Christians petitioning
> Indian Government to commemorate a Christmas stamp - the religion of their
> former masters?
5. Whether or not Christians in India petition for Christmas stamps does not establish anything. If you made the claim that Christians in India were denied the existence of a Christmas stamp, then perhaps you might have something close to a point. The fact that nobody asked for one to be created only illustrates that postage stamps do not have the same significance in India as
they do here.
6. Christianity being the dominant religion in the British Empire at the time is a completely irrelevant point.
> BTW Christians are 2 % of India and India is N-O-T their "Second" home.
7. Nobody claimed it was. The only mention of the phrase 'second home' in Swati's email was referred to the U.S. as your second home (though perhaps it is not).
> And they get killed, burned and raped for expecting basic human dignity.
> Perhaps you should petition somebody to rebuild Babri mosque - built by
> another one of your former Masters although in 14-th century.
8. You seem to be concerned about the violations of the rights of Christians in India, which is likely a valid concern. The destruction of the Babri Masjid (which was actually built by Babar in 1528, not the 14th century) was related to the almost perpetually strained relations between Muslims and Hindus, and is completely unrelated to the Christian community as far as I know.
> You not supporting the stamp cause is your perspective or your problem,
> however if you let MIT desi community forums to be used - er A B U S E D -
> to serve some narrow agenda, you are being part of the problem. Critique
> won't make anybody an anti-national, however refuting reality when somebody
> shows you the mirror certainly would.
9. Indeed, logical critiques are a vital part of learning and growth. Illogical rants, however, do not serve any useful purpose and serve only to irritate people. Writing emails using such poor English just adds to the frustration.
> me - not anti-national or anti-india, just Anti - Hypocrats, living in their
> "Second" home who seem to have forgotten what their true "Heritage" is and
> where they came from.
10. I assume that by "Hypocrats" you mean hypocrites. Perhaps you should better understand the definition of a hypocrite. It is, briefly, one who professes beliefs or opinions that they do not hold. Even if a person's reasons behind wanting a Diwali postage stamp were not valid, this would not make them a hypocrite.
> still anonymous
11. Whatever. This I can actually understand to some extent, since you most likely are scared to let people know who you are. Given the nonviolent community here, though, I can almost surely say you have nothing to fear other than people not liking you. If you feel so strongly in your convictions, people not liking you shouldn't be an issue for you - so your remaining anonymous is an indication (to me at least) of cowardice or a lack of conviction.
-Barun
From: "Geetanjali Mittal"
To: "'Anonymous Anonymous'",
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic - Thanks!!!
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:27:57 -0500
You there who has been watching "Conspiracy Theory" and "Memento" too often,
Thanks for enlightening me! You have won over my undulating or indulating support (one of those words is right). My lessons/ queries of the day be recapitulated master:
1. India's most widely celebrated festival as a symbol of nationality reeks of lack of creativity and particularism and secularism and and&. And a few more such "isms" my menial mind can not summon. What happened to the dear peacock or the tiger? Maybe Tiger was accused of representing Bengali interests and peacock could not pass the stamp-beauty test.
2. All festivals have an agenda: Every cracker burst on Diwali screeches "HINDU" in Ziptakoo language which your kind ears have understood after years of patience and toil. Oh yes what about Valmiki, Ram, Lakshmi something something why this festival was branded Hindu - how denigrate of me not to transgress to the modern era and not take festivities at face value - to celebrate life, happiness for a day whether it be at Diwali or Holi or Id or Christmas. Now I know&&&&&&&&&.all is not wat is seems&&&.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&. &&&&&that all the Santas amuck in malls during holiday season are not a product of commercialism; they are evangelistic incarnations with a single mission to promote Christianity. I just burnt the photograph in which I was sitting in a one cute Santa's lap - lest my grandmother think I am a convert.
3. OoohhHH! Such relevant statistics and trivia - now I know how to gobble all the chocolates at that uber trendy patisserie all by myself at the opening reception - I can steal from your generously shared (mis)information to drive away other hypocratical hobnobs like KachuaChaap drives away macchars.
4. How to distinguish between patriotism, pseudo-patriotism and snob-patriotism:
Indian toiling on the soils of Mother India - patriotic (maybe)
Indian ranting in US about a Diwali stamp - pseudo patriotic (has left first "home" to be in second "home" and knows as much heritage as I know how many teeth Garfield has but wants to "commemorate" INDIA because feels obliged to)
Riddling and travestying seemingly innocent proposals with notions of being religious-agenda- driven: Snob-patriotism (Oh dear, I just became your huge fan, when can I get your ottograph?)
5. Lobbying is an effective way to Bend rules. I am not able to be seeing what rules we be bending with this stamp proposal which I believed was only indicative of popular sentiment. I also be fooled into believing that Indians (NOT EQUAL TO Hindus) feeding the fire of capitalism raging in US belly be demanding a token gesture to acknowledge somewhat the same). Master, me not finding evidence of Christians contributing widely to Indian community in a noteworthy manner???
If you have been in exile for too long and conjuring facts/ history while being harassed to be silent about your involvement with the crew which will shoot Man's landing on Mars in 2012, please be telling me and I will petition for your release. If US mission fails, me be hearing, such documentary already in preparation (If you are sworn into secrecy and be sending cryptic mails till then, please be hinting me). Do visit me when you return from lala land.
Your sincere fan
G
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:50:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Utkarsh Sinha
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
Hi anonymous_boston,
please dont be so ashamed of yourself - we would all agree that you have every reason to be, but trust me, if you used your own ID, none of us would shun you. india has space for dissenters. you are a stupid dissenter, but nonetheless, there is space of you, because when you rant
on for pages and pages, there is a slight probability that you might speak some sense somewhere..
i agree with you on a few things - i am not proud of the way muslims have been treaed in India, nor of the way a catholic priest and his family were burnt to death. i do not find comfort in the fact that minorities have always been iltreated in other countries aswell. it annoys me to see
people comfortable when they ought to be uncomfortable, and we ought to be uncomfortable about this. but dont sit there on your computer talking about it, go to India and do something about it. do something about it or shut up.
And get out of this complex that you have - US post issuing a Diwali stamp does nothing for Hinduism or Indianism, it just brings a smile to any Indian, hindu or muslim or christian or jain who sees that the mail lying on the office desk has a familiar looking scene on it. It could be the Taj Mahal, or Eid, or the Qutab-Minar or the Golden Temple of Amritsar. The smile would still be there.
And why does second home have to be "second" home? an Indian living in singapore finds it his second home, as does a german living in england. What is the hypocricy?
Also, next time you compare Diwali to nazism, shoot yourself in the head. how dumb are you? HOWWW did you come up with this man - this is seriously idiotic shit.. its like comparing christmas to the holocaust.. or thanksgiving to hiroshima.. dont use our brain kid, give it a break.
As for the sanctity of MIT desi community fora, dont worry about it. there are people much more concerned with its purity taking care of it. And if you dont like what you are getting, then just send me a mail, with your actual name in it, and i will keep it confidential and remove you from the list.
I wish you luck with your life, you are going to Need every ounce of it. May GOD have mercy on your wayward soul.
Jai Hind,
Utkarsh.
PS - Boss, are you even Indian or are you just talking through you hat? There ARE Christmas stamps in India. there is also an Easter stamp in India. And they are just as Indian in their soul and content as the Diwali and Holi Stamps, that are also there in India.
PPS - No one had to petition for it.
Utkarsh Sinha
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:03:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Amit Oberoi
To: Utkarsh Sinha
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
Flame Warriors, meet your ilk
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html
From: "Anonymous Anonymous"
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:05:06 -0500
Okay - in an effort to clear some air here, let em clarify what I mean by "Bending the Law" vis-a-vis my reference to "Separation of State and Church(Religion)". The US federal law certainly allows Freedom of religion - AS-LONG-AS State (Government) is not involved. You can print a many stamps you want and distribute them but DO-NOT involve government in that endeavor. Is that clear enough.
I as a practising athiest (though born hindu) would not appreciate my tax dollar spent on some insecure brown mind seeking Governmental validation of his/her economic migration from bimaru(read UP, Bihar, Rajasthan and MP) heartland to land of plenty. Even regular Indians from North east or South Indians would not appreciate this. This malady seems to have engrained only the hindi speaking heartland - pardon my french here. This Mai-Baap attitude remnant of their colonial heritage smacks of deep rooted inferiority complex about their "INDIAN" ness. Nobody else needs to pay for it. If however Fed-Ex or UPS decides to do a diwali_Special_Envelope I would have no issues with it.
From: "Amit Jaisingh"
To: "'Anonymous Anonymous'" ,
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:36:33 -0500
My anonymous friend there are more civilized ways to protest rather than
public yelling. Just like you other tax-payers have the right to ask how
their tax money should be spent. The majority wins. So, maybe you should
leave the decision of "separation" to the "state". If you like the
petition (like 60,000 others did) then please sign it. Else, start
another one to block this one.
-Amit
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:42:48 -0500
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
A-nunny-mouse,
So sati was featured in the news just now. One of the almost trans-cultural attributes (which unfortunately our junta tend to have a higher quotient of) that you display here is a capacity to mix issues, a labile emotion and a narrow mind, to form a soup masquarading as a point. Stripped of your funny indignation, you don't have one. So stow it.
Reejis
From: "Anonymous Anonymous"
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 23:14:50 -0500
folks
What is shocking is the near complete ignorance of so called Indian intelligentia and middle class about what's happening in thier own country and what's done by their own government. And Indian media with all it's purported independence, has play a dark role in formenting this misinformation and ignorence. How many of you educated indians know about the rapes committed by Indian defence forces in Kashmir or rape and extra-judiicial killings in north east - duly recorded by Amnesty International almost every year. How much of media coverage is given to the fact that Mohandas Gandhi was once on payroll of British government before he baceme a successful lawyer in South Africe - how many have read his published notes about Blacks in South Africa - did he ever demand equality for ALL humans - NO just for his brown brethren - and NOT blacks. read this...
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/gandhi/
How many of you are even curious about the murderous mobs that killed and raped the entire localities in Gularat less than two years ago. How many are aware that the government's own criminal investigation scientifically concluded that the Godhra fire was started from within the railway compartment? And thousands paid for the lie perpetuated with their lives in the riots that followed. How many ever heard of the gang rapes of female LTTE cadres perpetuated by Indian peace-keeping forces in Sri Lanka; and that over 980 of them paid with their lives for it? So before you become too comfortable with your legacy of a "great" civilization, perhaps you should start questioning and veryfying all the truths and lies told to you.
Actually it is not your faulr, you bloody Indians are product of the conditioning you are subjected to. If a lie is perpetuated well enough, and often enough it finds it's way into history books taught in schools and becomes a truth. That is applicable to any culture and any country - but it is alarming in case of Indians wholly ignorent of what their own police and army is doing within their own borders; and what they have been made believe all along. They are too comfortable finding shelter in their Nationalism and Patriotism rather than face bitter truth.
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:29:45 -0500
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
It's a simple matter after reading your most recent monotonous rant to ask: So? -what's all this got to do with a Divali stamp petition? Every culture has a dark side. It's a tribute to Indians that most choose to see the good inspite of all the bad. It's in perpetuating the good that scope lies for a more decent mindset, I think.
And everyone is a product of conditioning, with many lies therein. Take some time to breathe, Any-mouse. Go find another cause, you would be more gutsy adding your name to as nice guys/gals don't hide.
reejis
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 00:44:12 -0500
From: Arnab Sinha
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Everybody,
I am all for freedom of speech - but I would appreciate if this anonyms_boston@hotmail.com were to take his/her psycho-babble someplace else. I think these rants are symptomatic of a deeper problem.
Two suggestions:
1) Mr./Ms. anonyms_boston@hotmail.com please do checkout http://www.schizophrenia.com/ - maybe it'll help.
2) List administrator - if possible could we please block this individual from sending mail to this list? I think we have more than enough information about how inherently evil we are.
Cheers,
Arnab.
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 01:10:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Vinod Vaikuntanathan
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Hello,
I do not intend to add to the flame war, but could not but respond to the following glaringly illogical and potentially dangerous lines of thought.
> misinformation and ignorence. How many of you educated indians know about
> the rapes committed by Indian defence forces in Kashmir or rape and
> extra-judiicial killings in north east - duly recorded by Amnesty
> International almost every year.
Do you happen to read news in general or only those that disparage Indians ? It looks like the latter is the case. Crimes (rape etc.) committed by the armed forces is by no means alien to the set of civilized nations (which, you seem to think, consists only of the US). Read
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2993492.stm for a sample of the brutal crimes committed by the US army in Japan. The point here is not that one should try to justify these atrocities, but that these are not localised to Indian army alone and that trying to
argue that it is a phenomenon that happens only in the hands of Indians is utterly brain-dead. This said, the point remains that one should protest (or try to) against _whoever_ perpetrates this.
> How much of media coverage is given to the
> fact that Mohandas Gandhi was once on payroll of British government before
> he baceme a successful lawyer in South Africe - how many have read his
> published notes about Blacks in South Africa - did he ever demand equality
> for ALL humans - NO just for his brown brethren - and NOT blacks. read
> this...
>
> http://www.dalitstan.org/books/gandhi/
You should know that dalitstan is a very highly biased organisation, which can hardly be trusted for truthful information. Anyway I do not see the point of dragging the poor man, who put
some energy to give us independence, into this flame war. Well, ignorence spells with an "a", if it helps.
Cheers,
Vinod
From: Lavanya Sharan
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: RE : A response to the cynic
Hey Anon!
I am equally revolted by the atrocities on minorities (Gujarat, Babri, Graham Steins, Christian nuns...). And I am genuinely worried at the way our saffron friends in power are tinkering with education (rewriting history books, opening astrology courses, taking away autonomy from IITs & IIMs...) and I also get heated abt the fact that we desis don't ever like to talk about uncomfortable issues like Godhra/Partition. But I don't equate someone petitioning for a Diwali stamp with a militant Hindu bigot out to 'cleanse India of invaders'.
As someone on this list suggested if you feel so stirred by these issues, do something about it. And yes provoking a debate on this mailing list is doing something about it. Only you didn't do that. You just got a lot of people irritated (for starting a spam burst :D) and offended (for calling them Manuistic and constipated thinkers) and confused (for equating diwali with riots).
I am a born-Hindu-practising-atheist too but I enjoy Diwali. Yes, I hate the idea of a radical minority using religious symbols and festivals to further their sectarian cause, but then that is what the Religious-Right does all over the world, doesn't it?
Peace,
Lavanya
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 02:30:00 -0500
From: Anoop Rao
Subject: RE: A response to the cynic
Anon: You seem to ruminate and chew the cud here and some of us have taken a liking for your flight of thought.
1. Gandhi was on payroll of the British. Bin Laden was a civil engineer for the CIA and you work for Blue Cross Blue Shield. So what?
2. Gandhi fought only for the browns and Sachin Tendulkar plays for Yorkshire. So what? Sulk and weep?
3. Your tax dollars also went to support the war-on-terror-so-that-US-can-control-oil-and-kill-evil-people-of-middle-eastern-origin. I'm sure you dehydrate yourself by weeping every living moment.
4. These "bloody Indians" score 280/7 because Laxman is taking steroids. Lets all weep because our heritage sucks.
Looks like you are the only one with a conscience. Keep going. I'm sure you'll attain salvation one of these days.
Join other bloody Indians in celebrating India's republic day - the dinner is in Ashdown (305 Mem Drive) at 7 on Saturday.
-anoop
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:02:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Dinesh Vijaykumar Raut
To: Lavanya Sharan
Subject: Re: RE : A response to the cynic
hi junta
sorry for spamming but i couldn't stop myself as a lot of bad things were said about india and our culture in genral.
we, indians, were ruled for almost thousand years by people who came from outside and and who didn't really try to gel themselves into the system that existed in india at that time
(i don't believe that aryans came from outside india) the brutalities against minorities are reactions to the incidences in past.
that is something we all don't want but we can't really stop completely. such incidences should never be used to tarnish the oldest and the greatest civillization which supported peaceful means more than any other system or civillization.
similar things applies to brutalities by our soldiers. see there is no point in talking non-violence or being nice if everyone around you doesn't understand what it means. it has to be tit for tat.
and once one takes that stand, some bad things are bound to happen. they happen everywhere and have happened in even greater extent in the past, especially against us, indians.
again, no one can really stop it and you shouldn't blame our system for it.
coming to the petition for diwali stamp. wel thats the way things work in US. you won't be heard unless you make some noise. no one is begging for acceptance of hindu culture in US. and if you feel too bad for that then you(mr anon and his/her supporters) should rather try to make india as the best and most powerful country in the world. then there wouldn't be anyone trying for such a petition.
wel, to be honest, i think our nation is the only one which can allow the world to live in the most peaceful manner. so instead of blaming it, one should rather try to make it the strongest one.
there would be no petition nor would there be any war.
-Dinesh
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 03:13:33 -0500
From: Vickram Mangalgiri
To: Anonymous Anonymous
Subject: Re: A response to the cynic
The only response that I have to such barking is strikingly similar to that offered to our anonymous canine friends on the streets or anonymous drunk alcoholics at Central Square:
"shooooo!!"
No sir, I am not even going to try to find out what sort or mental and physical abuse all these unfortunate anonymous victims have been through.
In line with the above response all subsequent barking shall be ignored. May their souls rest in peace.
From: "Anonymous Anonymous"
Subject: RE: RE : A response to the cynic
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:55:11 -0500
I am glad of some you are revolted; the idea is not to smoke the rest of you out of your misinformed comfort holes. I never claimed ALL of Indians are misinformed or biased - however overwhelming majority are, along with their deep rooted "Brown Consciousness" which keeps them from really breaking that umbilical cord to the culture that conditioned them.
The responses cited on this thread a typical "So-what"s so oft quoted by desi establishment (in India and in US) to justify their dark deeds and heritage, polished with sparkling plating of "non-violence"; from a country with one of lowest record on crimes against minorities and human rights, one of highest murder and rape per capita. Of course Gandhi used - A B U S E D - concept of non-violence effectively against British whom he could not otherwise counter with violence. However he is equally well known to regularly beat his wife and shun his own alcoholic sons. I guess charity (and non-violence) was supposed to begin at home. He was shrewd enough to capitalise on British desire to deal with somebody educated and polished while handing over power to Indians, as against perhaps deal with army rebels of INA - Indian National Army.
To answer how all this relates to Stamp petition, the issue is the underlying pattern that perpetuated the need to petition for something otherwise personal. Your petition is in direct violation of the law here in United States - that forbids US government from getting involved in any religious activity or promoting it. That shall take care of itself and die it's natural death after a few more thousand of insecure economic migrants have noted their approval upon it. The issue to begin with was whether a public forum can be abused to promote the dark agendas. The deep "brown insecurity" that led to such a petition is the same in character that led Nazis to unashamedly promote their own agenda - against all trade unionists, gypsies, communists and jews. That's the comparison between Nazism and the need to have a petition for Diwali stamp. It is nor a matter of majority - Nazis were pretty much overwhelming majority in Germany of 1930s. It was their "inferiority complex" after decades of humiliation following their defeat in first world war. That analogy equates with Desi brown mentality after centuries of humiliation by outsiders and colonialists, that they need to petition US Government to get come validation of their economic migration from Bimaru hindi heartland to uncle sam's courtyard. Those who counld not find US visa settled in Bombay and other metros or went to IT oases of South or cash rich states of north-west, leaving their less unfortunate brethren back in Bimaru heartland.
happy enlightening
From: "Siddharth Ray"
To:"'Anonymous Anonymous'"
Subject: Sangam Exec: Please stop the SPAM NOW!
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 10:07:14 -0500
Dear All-
The MIT mailing lists are not intended for such spamming. We should declare a ceasefire and stop all email regarding this topic immediately.
Utkarsh: If we have another email from Anonymous@ we will have to report this matter to STOPIT@MIT and setup a trace for this person and the place where he is operating from.
So please all- Stop the SPAM...there are way better things to do than SPAM on the weekend!
Siddharth
From: Anmol Madan
To: Dinesh Vijaykumar Raut
Subject: New Mailing List - A response to the cynic
Hi,
Could you all please create another mailing list for your opinions and discussions? I'd rather not have 20 peoples opinions forced upon me about what they think my country is or is not.
If have no idea how to do so, look at Athena/Necsys or send me an email [not to sangam], and I'll show you.
-Anmol
From: "Anonymous Anonymous"
Subject: RE:RE:
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:39:25 +0000
Friends,
I am sorry for the spam. Please forgive me. I was just trying to stir up an email flame. May god bless everyone. THank you.
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:14:09 -0500
From: Anoop Rao
Subject: RE:RE:
nice email id & nice try :-) but not quite the same as the original anonyms_boston
Addendum (Sept 21
st, 2004)
As Anoop pointed out, I have removed all email addresses from the mails above to prevent them from spamming.
