Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:38:11 2014 Host: HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU From: Cathy Douglass Shouldn't that only affect property tax, not income tax? You can't really push around income that way. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:38:59 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) You can push around deductions. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:39:33 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander ==rowlands Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:40:01 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I wonder what fraction of deductions could plausibly be removed from the tax code without objectionable consequences. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:40:19 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I really want the mortgage deduction to go away; the only one that seems obviously necessary to me is the charitable one. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:40:31 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) And I guess if we had better socialism, that one would be less important? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:41:07 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander the mortgage deduction is to encourage people to buy instead of rent. it has drawbacks and benefits. assuming you believe buying is good for long term financial stability and community roots. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:41:22 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I think buying is bad for society, which is why I want to kill it. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:41:47 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Basically, part of the auto-based, suburban disease infesting America is a fetish for owner-occupied housing. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:41:55 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander in the world where rents skyrocket arbitrarily, i disagree. it's a bit of a chicken and egg, but rents won't go down in the steady state. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:42:42 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) If rents skyrocket arbitrarily, that's enough motivation for people to buy if they can. Right now, we're giving a windfall to people rich enough and with good enough job security to buy. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:42:47 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander also we literally cannot support housing our entire population in existing cities. and making new cities is provably hard. maybe if those happen, other problems can be worked on. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:43:07 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander rent where i live is skyrocketing a lot. but i can't afford to buy. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:43:29 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) So how does it benefit you to give a tax deduction to people richer than you who can? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:43:39 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander but not encouraging people to buy isn't helping that. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:44:00 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander it is a super, super rich population that can buy in the inner parts of the 5 boroughs. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:44:03 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) The fact you can't afford to buy is made worse by property values being higher because more money chasing the properties for sale. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:44:16 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Exactly. So we're giving a tax deduction to the super-rich. Why is that good? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:40:30 2014 Host: EQUAL-RITES.MIT.EDU From: Steel and circuits will make me whole The super-rich don't actually get the mortgage deduction. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:44:42 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) And since it's a deduction, it's worth more if they spend even more on housing, and if their income (and tax-bracket) is higher? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:44:58 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander ==ghudson. we're not really helping them. we're helping the people elsewhere who we're actually trying to help, i think. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:45:13 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander the amt makes that hard. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:41:15 2014 Host: EQUAL-RITES.MIT.EDU From: Steel and circuits will make me whole Itemized deductions phase out starting at $150K of income (which actually isn't anywhere close to super-rich for SF or NY). Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:45:39 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Basically, I don't think your point is even relevant, then? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:07 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) It's still helping people-who-can-afford-to-buy, who you're claiming would benefit from buying anyway because rents skyrocket. It's not helping the people who rent because they can't afford to buy. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:09 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander my point is that we're encouraging buying where that's still feasible for the "middle class" without causing tons of harm where it's not remotely feasible for them. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:23 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I think this is a bad thing. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:30 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) But you're a capitalist and presumably disagree with me. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:43 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I, uh, don't think private ownership of land by anyone for any purpose should be legal. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:45 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander no, i just think there are more than immediate cities to care about. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:56 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) So I don't think we should be encouraging house ownership by anyone. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:46:58 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander immediate cities are fucked, but less so with this. barely, but less so. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:47:07 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander well, the US doesn't agree with you, and i don't either. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:47:10 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Yes. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:47:34 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I still think the deduction is wrong. I just realize it's not going away because this country is infested with capitalists. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:47:34 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander where by barely less so i mean with mortgage deductions Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:47:48 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander fwiw, everyone who is buying super rich property near me is all cash. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:47:53 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander so it doesn't even apply. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:44:51 2014 Host: EQUAL-RITES.MIT.EDU From: Steel and circuits will make me whole Taking away the mortgage deduction wouldn't really affect property ownership. It would just swing the balance somewhat towards commercial ownership and renting. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:49:08 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I consider that a good result. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:49:16 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Because single family homes are evil. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:49:23 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander you think that corporations owning things is better than people owning things? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:45:22 2014 Host: EQUAL-RITES.MIT.EDU From: Steel and circuits will make me whole Interesting. To me it seems like more capitalism. Oh, I see, you want higher housing density. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:49:31 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Yes. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:49:33 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander because that wouldn't create any sort of oligarchy? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:49:54 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Well, it would make it easier to convince the voters to confiscate the property and have the government be their landlord instead. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:50:05 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander beacuse governments are never corrupt. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:50:11 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) And weaken the middle class's weird alliance with the rich. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:51:07 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Right now the middle class is strongly allied with the rich to stomp on the poor. They need to realize that the rich are evil and should be exterminated. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:51:08 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander i would argue that in this situation, the middle class's alliance is with the upper class, not the rich. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:51:24 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander as per always, you're going to get nowhere arguing people be killed. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:52:15 2014 Host: HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU From: Cathy Douglass rowlands considers the upper class to be rich. I'm not sure it's wrong. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:52:32 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I'm going to get nowhere anyway, because you (on this class, and in this country) are a bunch of capitalists. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:52:54 2014 Host: HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU From: Cathy Douglass Since this is discussing economics, not "well, my family all had respectable upper-class type jobs before they lost all their money, so they retain some upper-class status." Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:52:59 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) So my best hope is to kill myself. Sadly, I don't have the guts at present, but hopefully someday. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:53:17 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander i use the upper class as "gets majority (let's say 90% even) from income" and the rich as everyone else. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:53:46 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander the upper class benefits from mortgage deductions, at least early on. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:53:55 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander whereas i don't think the rich do. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:54:26 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) I believe the upper class should be eliminated, too. The poorer parts of them should perhaps just have their wealth confiscated without being executed. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:54:37 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Honestly, wealth confiscation is more essential than execution, anyway. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:55:23 2014 Host: DEPARTMENT-OF-ALCHEMY.MIT.EDU From: Entering: Boston University Central. Doors will open on the right. what's the end state you foresee here? everyone is poor? Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:55:33 2014 Host: TEAM-ROCKET.MIT.EDU From: let her mind wander this is not my class but cathy's but seriously, advocating for execution and other such things is way below base human decency. anyway, i don't want to continue to put up with interacting with people who believe this is a reasonable way to converse, so if anyone wants to argue about actual housing economics, ping me elsewhere. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:55:54 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) The government provides necessities for everyone, so no one is truely poor: no one is starving or unable to afford housing or medical care. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:56:01 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) No one is much richer than anyone else, either. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:56:17 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) The rich have no human decency, and deserve none. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 11:56:42 2014 Host: ALL-NIGHT-TOOL.MIT.EDU From: Lemur Rowlands (Please use "it/its/it".) Good. I've long ago determined you to be an arsehole, so I'm glad to have you leave so I can stop arguing with you. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 12:06:03 2014 Host: MAPLE-SYRUP.MIT.EDU From: Adam Glasgall People are human beings and as such deserve human decency. I am not going to remain in a discussion with someone who's advocating for people to liquidated as a class. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 12:06:50 2014 Host: HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU From: Minimal BASH-like line editing is supported. That entity is no longer subbed here; see its class. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 12:08:31 2014 Host: MAPLE-SYRUP.MIT.EDU From: Adam Glasgall Great. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 12:08:47 2014 Host: MAPLE-SYRUP.MIT.EDU From: Adam Glasgall I just wanted to get it out there that I am very not okay with the turn this conversation took. Class: zhangc Instance: fml.q Time: Mon Jul 14 12:17:33 2014 Host: GRUMPY-FUZZBALL.MIT.EDU From: The Zekiness ...having just caught up, I am confused what happened here.