shawest / gender / shawest 19:34 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
I noticed back at MIT that when hanging out with a large group
of people, discussions about science/politics/economics had a tendency
of shutting up most of the girls in the group (there were some
exceptions to this--most notably that I think of off the top of my
head is fischerl). I was always somewhat confused and disappointed by
this. I think I've found that the same thing seems to hold for many of
the girls here. Why is this?
shawest / gender / shawest 19:35 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
The best explanation I can think of is that there's more of a cultural
stigma against girls being intellectual than against guys being so,
and so a lot of girls have grown up with pressure to be quiet in these
situations
shawest / gender / wings 19:36 (Now I want to alias redbull='add wings' - ismith)
Yes, that. Also some of this: http://xkcd.com/385/
shawest / gender / shawest 19:36 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
Erm, there are also a large number of exceptions (notably: a lot of
the people on my zephyr class who love talking about, especially,
politics :))
shawest / gender / wings 19:36 (It's imaginary! And we are imagining your penis! (zsig me and die) - ismith)
It's lose-lose if you say something too smart or too dumb.
shawest / gender / shawest 19:37 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
Although I sort of would expect that a large fraction of the females
in academia or top universities would be the type of people who care
less about this sort of stigma, since they've had to go against it to
get where they are, anyway
shawest / gender / preeya 19:38 (Preeya S Phadnis)
Girls are also often ignored in these discussions (though that's much
better at MIT).
shawest / gender / wings 19:38 (We will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway. - Hitchhiker's Guide)
I wouldn't be surprised if, going into the real world, you found this
effect even more drastically present
shawest / gender / shawest 19:39 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
Especially since there are a lot of dominant female personalities at
MIT, it sort of surprises me that many of them suddenly become
submissive when talking about these things
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:39 (Gomora bleeds silver)
I'm also not going to be surprised if the girls just have different
interests and know about other things. I.e. I suck at talking
politics, because I know jack and squat about it, but I can talk your
ear off about other things.
shawest / gender / preeya 19:39 (Preeya S Phadnis)
e.g., when I was a debater in high school, I often found that if I
tried to talk about politics with a group of boys, they were much
less willing to respond to what I said, though they would respond to
another boy who made the same points.
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:39 (Xanthros is mostly hollow)
Don't mistake "I don't want to talk about it" or "I don't know much
about that subject" for "I'm afraid to be smart"
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:39 (I need a new zsig.)
but there's no reason why it should be the case that most girls don't care about
politics
shawest / gender / preeya 19:39 (Preeya S Phadnis)
==cdhill, though I would say that girls are often socialized not to
talk about them
shawest / gender / preeya 19:40 (Preeya S Phadnis)
kyoki: Politics is highly divisive, and girls are taught to shy away
from conflict.
shawest / gender / shawest 19:40 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
preeya: perhaps. I guess that would make a lot of sense, too, if girls
often expect to be ignored and therefore don't speak up for that
reason, which would affect their behavior at MIT, even if they are
less likely to be ignored there
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:40 (Archaeon's voice has the highest maximum frequency of any Higher Shadow (50 kHz))
Back when I did debate in high school, it was practically all guys.
I'm guessing guys like to argue more.
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:40 (Gomora is only 8' tall but weighs as much as a VW Beetle)
Guys tend to be more overtly aggressive and are praised for it; girls
are encouraged to stay away from conflict
shawest / gender / wings 19:41 (If the apocalypse comes, beep me. - Buffy)
I notice a big difference in how much people pay attention to what I'm
saying, between real life and zephyr.
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:41 (I need a new zsig.)
preeya: sure. I guess my point is that there's some sort of outside influence
that makes it so that girls don't know much about/like to talk about politics.
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:41 (I need a new zsig.)
I don't really notice that difference, but I'm pretty aggressive
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:41 (Just one of Archaeon's Diamantine colossi would bring in enough money to pay off the US National Debt.)
I haven't terrifically noticed guys ignoring me in favor of males, but
on the other hand I'm loud and kind of don't let people ignore me. ^^;
I'm surprised you saw that at MIT, really. I figured it would be a
haven for the women who did want to break lots of norms.
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:41 (Dyne can climb using the blades on her "wrists")
er, == kyoki
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:42 (I need a new zsig.)
I did have a friend ask me at some point if I faced any sort of prejudice
because I'm so fem
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:42 (I need a new zsig.)
but I don't think I've seen any of that
shawest / gender / preeya 19:42 (Preeya S Phadnis)
kyoki: Right, exactly. There are lots of things like "Oh honey, don't
talk about that, it'll just make everyone argue", as well as a
cultural meme that girls aren't supposed to be interested in
"serious" things.
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:43 (I need a new zsig.)
I got the exact opposite when I was a kid from most people I knew (although I
did get that from my dad)
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:44 (Xanthros bleeds gold)
My parents were always like "don't take crap from people," but I get
the feeling that's my mom being a lot like me :P
shawest / gender / shawest 19:44 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
Actually, now that I think about it, I actually really like that
argument (that the feeling that you'll be ignored makes you less
likely to speak up). I've definitely experienced the age-ist (rather
than sexist) version of this where growing up I would say something
that would be completely ignored by all the adults, but then someone
older than me would say exactly what I just said and everyone would
believe them, and my response to this was, after awhile, to stop
speaking up in the presence of people who are much older/more
experienced than me. This has actually been one of the big things I've
been trying to get over as I've been interacting directly with
professors in research a lot. I think I can easily see how this same
effect would cause women to shy away from such conversations if they
are used to being ignored
shawest / gender / preeya 19:44 (Preeya S Phadnis)
I think the effect persists at MIT because boys are still more
aggressive, and because girls aren't breaking nearly as many cultural
norms being there as some people claim they are.
shawest / gender / shawest 19:46 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
Well, also MIT girls still grew up around not-MIT boys
shawest / gender / preeya 19:46 (Preeya S Phadnis)
I mean, obviously they are breaking some, but doing well academically
seems to have been divorced from a lot of other cultural norms that
are still in effect.
shawest / gender / shawest 19:46 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
My observation at MIT was that there is a much higher concentration of
submissive boys and dominant girls than the outside world has, which
seems like it should very drastically reduce the effect, unless it's
prior effects carrying over
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:47 (Janus can make his fur stand on end and spit sparks)
I've noticed the passive guys thing, definitely.
shawest / gender / preeya 19:47 (Preeya S Phadnis)
(this may just be me, I think doing well academically was considered
a very good thing in the social culture of my high school, but being
pushy/arguing was definitely not.)
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:48 (Allison Jaeger is only 5'6" -- she wears heels and shoulder pads for size)
Arguing was the thing to do in my high school. All the smart kids were
in debate. They were also catty as hell, even the boys. ><
shawest / gender / shawest 19:48 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
At my high school, the girls almost certainly tended to do better than
the boys, academically
shawest / gender / shawest 19:48 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
The top 15 of my graduating class was incredibly female-heavy
shawest / gender / mifuchs 19:48 (Mae I Fuchs)
I think that feeling of being ignored plays into the lack of
aggressiveness. I know I've had tha problem for age, gender, size,
that said size made me look younger than I am, and social reasons. I
think the other big issue can be that can affect speaking up is that
if you're ignored often enough and are a more aggressive personality,
you might keep doing it--except get less coherent and more frustrated.
A lot of that can then get dismissed because "Bah, this person's just
being angry over something that doesn't deserve it, whatever."
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:49 (I need a new zsig.)
== shawest
shawest / gender / cdhill 19:50 (Allison once went 3 days without sleep)
All the smartest people at my school were male.
unshawest / gender / pbaranay 19:50 ("I think all plans are singing-compatible." - xavid)
Hey guys, my anecdata is totally better than your anecdata.
unshawest / gender / cdhill 19:50 (Xanthros is the only Higher Shadow without permanently full yellow eyes,)
Ha ha ha. I was mentioning it just for "Huh, that's neat, I had a
different experience."
unshawest / gender / shawest 19:50 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
ANECDATA PROVES EVERYTHING
shawest / gender / preeya 19:50 (Preeya S Phadnis)
In general, girls are demonstrably doing better academically than
boys these days, in terms of average graduation rates from high
school/college and so on.
shawest / gender / wings 19:51 (I'm here to kill you, not to judge you! - $vampire, Buffy)
"All the smart kids at my school were girls!"
shawest / gender / shawest 19:53 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
I think part of this might be that it's (sort of the same thread as
the earlier explanation) more socially acceptable for girls to work
harder at understanding things than it is for guys
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:53 (I need a new zsig.)
why is that?
shawest / gender / shawest 19:53 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
Especially at the high school leel, there is a lot of pressure for
guys to "find everything easy" or understand everything right off the
bat
shawest / gender / wings 19:53 (It's a Hugstorm! Apparently the Hug mages were out of herbs. - peairs)
The whole idea that you should be naturally brilliant is a little bit
stronger for guys than girls
shawest / gender / kyoki 19:54 (I need a new zsig.)
interesting
shawest / gender / shawest 19:54 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
But the same reason that women are often ignored in
conversations--because they aren't expected to be as intelligent as
the men--means that they are "allowed" to ask questions or have to
work to understand things
shawest / gender / kdrinkwa 19:54 (Alioth)
Yeah, conscientiousness is seen as more of a virtue in girls than in
guys, I think
unshawest / gender / kyoki 19:55 (I need a new zsig.)
men are raised to be thoughtless boors
unshawest / gender / cdhill 19:56 (Virius and her periphery is the most massive Higher Shadow.)
truth
unshawest / gender / shawest 19:57 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
UGH! ROAR!
shawest / gender / preeya 19:57 (Preeya S Phadnis)
The relevant trope here is
http://www.anamardoll.com/2011/07/percy-jackson-curse-of-smart-girl.html
shawest / gender / shawest 20:00 (Sith Lord Shawn S. Westerdale)
heh