>>> Item number 7764 from WRITERS LOG9301E --- (217 records) ----- <<< Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 16:41:41 JST Reply-To: WRITERS Sender: WRITERS From: Mike Barker Subject: TECH: Markets and Competing Peter, jbutcher, and Karen Lowe (at least), First for Peter and jbutcher... - To be honest, I was hoping for that as well as information about - potential occupational opportunites, the writing market, etc. Is this - kind of thing normally discussed on here? - - I'm interested in the writing market and how to go about getting something - published, or what the best approach to take is with publishers/magazines/ - newspapers...I don't think I've seen anything on this list yet that addresses Jane said... - All you need to do is ask, and I guarantee SOMEONE will - respond (whether it's what you want to hear or not). I guess I qualify as SOMEONE, so let me bend your eyes for awhile:-) I'm fairly sure the serious folks have gotten back to you. I hope so, because I certainly am interested in these questions, and am (possibly) more out of touch with the markets than you are. You may know all this, but I can suggest you visit your library or bookstore (cripes, you have easy access to both of those with LOTS of English language books *envy*) and look carefully at Writer's Digest books - there's a big hardcover each year (Writer's Market), plus recently a stack of paperbacks for specialties. Despite drawbacks that someone will likely point out, that's probably the best general reference. They also put out a monthly magazine "Writer's Digest", and there's "The Writer" and at least one more whose name I cannot recall which you can usually find in Walden's or B. Dalton's magazine racks. If the serious folks have something they send by email in answer to questions like this and are on bitnet, could you send me a copy, too? This next part isn't really answers, more a series of questions I've wrestled with in regard to my writing. I hope they might help you think about "the market". Now, I'm going to start with a funny question - are you just interested in being published, or do you want money too? I think it makes a significant difference in the markets you're looking at as to how you answer that. Let me add one more odd question - do you insist on your article (story, poem, etc.) being published exactly the way you wrote it or can the editor change the title, rewrite the lead-in paragraph, and otherwise fit your work to their needs? How you answer that question also affects your markets. Let me give you an example - (blatant self-plug follows) - if you look at the January 1993 issue of IEEE Software in the book reviews, you'll find a piece with my name on it. I get "paid" with two copies and the book I review (actually, with computer book prices what they are, that's not bad pay:-). But - the editor wrote the lead-in using something I had in mine, and she's never used any of my titles. She also hacked it again, even after I'd seen the approval copy. Not that I'm objecting - we've done this before, and she knows I'm not a stickler about it. In fact, her headlines are much better than my proposals, and she's trying to juggle text, ads, and noisier writers into a product against a deadline, so I don't argue when she makes last-minute changes. In fact, she's told me that's one reason she likes to use my pieces - because I do understand the kind of work she's doing, and let her do it. The editor also enjoyed that piece because I used an extended metaphor - I said the author reviewed the field of email, and then I talked about him showing us the flowers, cow patties, and other things. Not your ordinary boring technical review, and in the cover I carefully made sure she understood that if she didn't like it, I would redo the piece. You might say - that's non-fiction, just a book review, that's different. You should read "Grumbles From the Grave" by Robert Heinlein. This is the collected history of an "established writer" trying to get fiction published - a fascinating insight. And yet another question to help point your self-searching - do you insist on writing fiction or non-fiction? Do you have a specific genre or specialization that you just have to be published in, or is your drive more generous with you? Again, the answer affects how you look at and attack the market. Oh, one other very off-beat question - do you insist on having your name on your writing? Suppose the editor puts your name on some things, but leaves it off some? Or suppose the editor puts someone else's name on pieces you've written? These are critical questions, especially if you get into some of the newspaper markets. If you don't mind doing non-fiction (you shouldn't, it's a good field and helps pay the way for many other pursuits), here are some entryways I know that used to be fairly generous - book reviews in many professional magazines (it helps if you work in that field - and then they give you books to read!), small newspapers (weeklies, etc.), your local political office/church/other social group... During grad school, I also wrote a stack of press releases which the PR people happily distributed for me. No name, no pay, and the newspapers tended to rewrite or cut like crazy, but sometimes I could tell where my words had gone. Note that these are largely zero or negative in terms of pay, but they give you practice and help build your clip book. They are also almost entirely non-fiction. OK, Karen. I've been following the other pieces, but I wanted to comment on this... - I'm interested in the "Rinky-Dink" Society. Personally, I usually get a - decent response from my poetry, but am unable to compete with current - popular forms of poetry. You may have noticed my "Victorian Poetry". I've - decided to go the Emily Dickinson route, write tons of stuff, publish a few - and tell the "official" critics to take a flying leap, their grandchildren - will love my stuff. ;-) Karen Lowe. whoa! wait a minute. "unable to compete with current forms of poetry"? Karen, I'm the bloody fool around here, you certainly beat my doggerel hands down. You even know what Randy's caesurus are, apparently. I suppose you mean you don't think you'll make Redbook, or whatever the main mass market pub's are now? I doubt very much if my stuff (poetry, story, or non-fiction) will ever hit that kind of market, but is it important? I'm afraid I take a little different approach to writing. I don't think there are "winners" per se, in the sense that there is one champ, with everyone else ranked below them. As in certain martial arts and other fields, the question is whether you executed your art as well as you could or not, no matter how other people look at it. Do you really think that the vast majority of marathon racers compete to win? Or do they run against themselves, whether alone or in the midst of others? Here, do me a favor, would you? Write yourself a poem on the theme of the runner (swimmer, writer, whatever you like) whose only purpose is their own pleasure, and the feelings they have when one day someone stops them and says "You came in first". The unconscious, surprised winner, shall we say? Then, if you like, I'd enjoy reading it. Karen, I think poets perhaps more than any other branch of writing need to forget about the normal measures for societal accomplishment. You know the plot, at least for artists - starve in a garret, beg, borrow, and steal to let themselves produce their own art in their own way. The rare comedy goes that they are discovered in the nick of time and become rich and famous. The far more common tragedy is that discovery comes too late. And the even more common reality is that (a) they manage to support themselves relatively well, usually doing something else and (b) they make the time and do what they like and (c) they make their own "discovery". Heck - take several of your poems, and make some copies of them. Go down to your supermarket and find the manager. Point out to him (or her) that bulk natural food cereals don't have a box for the customers to read in the morning, so you'd like to help him offer them a treat - poetry to eat by. Talk him (or her) into putting up a little box, and the explanation of what this is, right beside the bulk cereal. This first set of poems is free for the store. And you have now "been published." But be patient, it gets better. Watch - those poems will be picked up. And when the stack is nearly gone, you can talk to the store owner about paying you for the next ones (let them suggest a payment, if possible. keep the charge low, but make sure you get paid.) Figure out whether you want to do the copying yourself (to control paper quality) or let them do it. If you want to, talk them into reproducing it themselves but pay you a larger fee (since they can now make as many copies as they want, they may consider it a bargain). You think I'm kidding, don't you? I just recently (here in Japan) saw something about a guy who's printing his short stories on T-shirts. Apparently they are selling, too. Maybe that's not the kind of publication and market you're looking for, but please don't tell me you can't compete. You can. Get out there and go for it! Jane also said - Please don't be. The majority of us (let me know if I'm wrong) are, - as yet, unpublished, so have no proof that we are better or worse - than you (and even then, it's not really proof!) - regardless of what - certain egotists might think. Do be prepared for some criticism - and/or some praise, however. - - ENJOY!!!!! I'm not sure if Jane will let me talk (I've got a 20 year old clipbook of newspaper articles and there are other odd bits and pieces around that have my name on them - but they're almost all non-fiction, Jane, and I sure never got paid much:-) To tell you the truth, though, I'm usually looking at my next piece - and so far, that's unpublished. I can also state categorically from the pieces I've seen printed (and done) that publication has relatively little to do with value - a lot to do with timing, blank empty pages around paid-for ads that the editor has to fill, and other oddities. Let you in on a secret, though. If you don't write it, and don't send it out, the odds of being published are very, very low. If you follow the reverse strategy (write, submit, and keep submitting), the odds increase dramatically! Which reminds me, now I've got to get back to writing. Heinlein's "recipe" (abridged from memory, 'cause I can't find the book) 1. write 2. finish what you write 3. don't rewrite unless an editor tells you to 4. put it on the market 5. keep it on the market until it sells (sorry, this isn't very well organized. I got excited, and wanted to get it out this week. I managed to find hideyholes for all my files here, too.) hope this helps, mike if you're on bitnet, you can send me mail at barker%aegis.or.jp@JPNKYOTO.BITNET if you're not on bitnet - just go ahead and yell at me on the list.